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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 189 of 675 (589284)
11-01-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by jar
11-01-2010 11:43 AM


Character of GOD, God, and gods
Can we even agree on what God should be?
For instance, which traits would seem logical and preferable?
Omnipotence? Favor for humans? (or at least affinity)
Ralational? Approachable? Understanding our limited ability to comprehend?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 11:43 AM jar has replied

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 Message 190 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 12:02 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 191 of 675 (589286)
11-01-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by jar
11-01-2010 12:02 PM


Re: Character of GOD, God, and gods
Well can we at least try and agree on what God likely is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 12:02 PM jar has replied

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 Message 192 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 12:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 193 of 675 (589288)
11-01-2010 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
11-01-2010 12:07 PM


Re: Character of GOD, God, and gods
jar writes:
LOL
Sure. Make up any God you like.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with what GOD actually is.
Is it thus likely that no human story or description of God or god is even likely to be similar to the reality?

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 Message 192 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 12:07 PM jar has replied

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 Message 194 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 12:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 195 of 675 (589401)
11-02-2010 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by jar
11-01-2010 12:20 PM


Why Atheists?
Fair enough. You have persuaded me of the logic that shows how nobody can really prove God. Behavior matters more than profession.
Switching topics a bit.... "Why Atheists?"
You have hinted that you believe that Heaven, if Heaven exists (or the next good place after our physical deaths here on earth) will probably contain many more atheists than it will Christians.
What evidence do you have to make this assertion?
I don't believe that I have any more of a chance to make it than anyone else, but I also believe that I don't have less of a chance either.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 203 of 675 (637401)
10-15-2011 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by jar
11-03-2010 10:38 AM


Re: Public or Great Debate?
I say open this puppy back up! All can now participate. I asked some important questions back in message 22 and onward, and would like to see comments from additional EvC members.
So jar....in your belief, does God have any influence over what we humans decide to do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by jar, posted 11-03-2010 10:38 AM jar has replied

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 Message 204 by jar, posted 10-15-2011 10:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 205 of 675 (637418)
10-15-2011 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by jar
10-15-2011 10:57 AM


Can God Be Indicted By Humanity?
I started discussing the whole "evil god" idea.
phat,message#22 writes:
One thing I don't understand is the evil God thing you keep bringing up.
Lets discuss it
Basically, we then argue the case for Gods foreknowledge making God out to be evil. To this day I still dont quite get the logic of that argument.
If God foreknew that a person would live a life choosing to reject God and/or proper morality and whom would be judged as damned, why does this make God evil? Critics may argue that this person had no other choice, given that their script was already written.
I suppose the only way out of this argument is to say that I don't know what God knows and thus cannot accuse God of being evil.
Nor can anyone else. You don't indict a Supreme Being without having your own ducks in a row, after all.
Edited by Phat, : changed title to reflect forthcoming Jewish philosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 10-15-2011 10:57 AM jar has replied

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 Message 206 by jar, posted 10-15-2011 12:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 207 of 675 (637422)
10-15-2011 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
10-15-2011 12:57 PM


Re: Can God Be Indicted By Humanity?
jar writes:
We are charged to judge even God's behavior and to point out where God is behaving poorly.
Does not this portray an imperfect Deity? While I can admit that the doctrine of Original Sin may be challenged, I certainly can't imagine that suddenly humans are responsible for judging God Himself...unless God somehow plays the role only to teach us something. A God, (THE GOD) by definition of most of club christian is all wise and certainly not prone to making mistakes and/or being judged.
And before you point out the text, that brings up another thing. Why are we limited to defining and explaining God purely on the words of one collection of books known as the Bible? IF God created/imagined humanity before we even had the ability to create/imagine Him in our own minds, shouldn't we be able to question the character of such a Deity? Myself, I prefer to think of a Deity who is wiser, stronger, and more complete than I or any other human is.

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 Message 206 by jar, posted 10-15-2011 12:57 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 675 (637542)
10-16-2011 12:37 PM


Philosophy Of God and human attempts at definition of Deity
jar writes:
What is the topic of the thread?
Now you say I should not point out what the Bible actually says?
Not at all...keep reminding us what scripture says. The overall topic (or subtopic, as it is) is belief...and how people arrive at their belief. All I am suggesting is that God is not determined or defined by any one human. (Or book, for that matter.)
Chuck77 writes:
It's taken me long enough but I finally figured it out. Whenever Jar talks about Christianity he's using Poe's Law, but without the smilies. That's what throws eveyone off. Becauae really, the dude hasn't the slightest clue at all what the Bible teaches says or means let alone anything concerning Christianity whatsoever.
Actually, Chuck, jar does know what the Bible says, probably better than most of us. He differs in that he does not believe the collection of books known as the Bible is inerrant or somehow the final word from God. My faith is based on my experience (as I believe it to be and have felt that is is and was) from encounters with God Himself. Jar would rightly question me..."how do you know that it is or was God?" And he does have a point. Who is any one group or chapter of Christianity to tell everyone else what the book means or is supposed to mean?
Thats why we have this discussion forum and why I am resurrecting this old topic.
So what are we discussing now? In my opinion, we are discussing human interpretations of who God is, what our role is, and how our relationship with each other and perhaps with a Deity unfolds in this discussion. Jar and I had what I thought was a good exchange of ideas concerning Gods foreknowledge and human freewill or lack of same.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 675 (637544)
10-16-2011 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
07-02-2007 12:12 PM


Re: The Responsibility to Question
Phat writes:
My question to you is: In your quest for testing your beliefs and affirming some things and rejecting others, how do you determine what is and is not of God?
jar writes:
You test against reason, logic and reality
Has it been your experience in your spiritual beliefs that it appears that what God says (in the books) is unreasonable, illogical, or unrealistic?
Is this why you say:
quote:
We are charged to judge even God's behavior and to point out where God is behaving poorly.
In your preferred chapter of club Christian, are people actively encouraged to question the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 12:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 10-16-2011 12:55 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 223 of 675 (637550)
10-16-2011 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by jar
10-16-2011 12:55 PM


Re: The Responsibility to Question
OK, master...grasshopper will try again to make better use of his wording in his questions!
1)Does the Bible suggest that God is unreasonable, illogical, or unrealistic?
1a) Do you personally believe that GOD (The One you believe exists as said in the Nicene Creed is unreasonable, illogical, or unrealistic?
(I'm guessing that you are going to say that its silly to discuss an unknowable conception)
2) Are Anglicans and Episcopalians encouraged to question the Bible and in what it says or means for believers and people in general today?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 10-16-2011 12:55 PM jar has replied

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 Message 224 by jar, posted 10-16-2011 1:16 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 675 (637552)
10-16-2011 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by iano
11-02-2010 9:23 AM


How Big? How Wise? How Comprehendable?
Ian, do you believe that the Bible describes God completely? Do you believe that God can be known fully and understood fully? Are humans able to fully understand the reasoning of such a Deity? Is it more important to understand Him or to understand each other?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 227 of 675 (637557)
10-16-2011 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by jar
10-16-2011 1:16 PM


Re: The Responsibility to Question
jar writes:
Huh?
The God described in the Nicene Creed is whom? GOD, God, or god?
The purpose of this question, and what I'm trying to drag out of you, is whether we can arrive at a consensus of who God is, assuming that GOD is unknowable and that god is, as pointed out by you, a chameleon of poetic license past and present.
By the way, you may explain to our other participants what you mean by GOD, God, and god.
I was under the impression that GOD is the actual Deity who either absolutely exists or absolutely does not.
God is the human attempts to frame such a Deity and define such a Deity based on beliefs, customs, and experiences.
I'm not sure what you meant by god.

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 Message 224 by jar, posted 10-16-2011 1:16 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 675 (637701)
10-17-2011 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
07-10-2007 5:26 PM


Re: What God expects
jar writes:
You are being inconsistent again.
You said God foreknows every decision that will be made.
I've been doing some thinking lately and conclude that Gods foreknowledge is unknown. I believe that He created us with the ability to turn right or left, however. We can never claim that He foreknew that we would end up in one spot.
Edited by Phat, : fixed boo boo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 07-10-2007 5:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 10-17-2011 5:02 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 675 (637801)
10-18-2011 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
10-17-2011 5:02 PM


Re: What God expects
jar writes:
So God does not have foreknowledge?
We can never know. All that we can do is live the best way that we innately know how. The journey is more important than the destination.
You and I can theoretically say that IF God knows this or that, then_________ but realistically, it is an unanswerable question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 10-17-2011 5:02 PM jar has replied

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 Message 233 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 8:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 234 of 675 (637826)
10-18-2011 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
07-11-2007 1:26 PM


Re: Back to basics.
jar writes:
If God Creates something and is aware of all that that critter will do in the future, then that critter has no freewill.
It really is simple. If I create a machine that I know will always turn left, then even if that thing "Thinks it will decide which way to turn" it will always turn left.
If you created a machine that had an awareness of right and left and chose its directions based on evaluation, even if you had a printout indicating the directions that the machine would go during its operating life, all that you would see on the printout is the result of the machines computations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 07-11-2007 1:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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