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Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 181 of 759 (598980)
01-04-2011 3:13 PM


Update
The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has put the case on hold pending input from the California Supreme Court. As you may recall if you've been following the case, a threshold issue on appeal is whether the proponents of the California constitutional amendment banning gay marriage have standing to appeal from the district court ruling. The appeals court has determined that they cannot answer that question without guidance from the California Supreme Court. This will push the whole thing back weeks, if not months.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 759 (638843)
10-26-2011 1:34 PM


Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
I think this is the last gay thread that we've had that's still open, so I'm just gonna put this here. Might be worthy of new topic, I dunno. But it seems controversial enough to sprak a discussion:
quote:
A LESBIAN couple in California who say their 11-year-old son Tommy wants to be a girl named Tammy are giving their child hormone blockers that delay the onset of puberty, so that he can have more time to decide if he wants to change his gender.
http://www.news.com.au/...tammy/story-e6frfkyi-1226169281540
Some are calling this child abuse, some are insinuating its a step in the right direction. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but it doesn't seem right.... 11 years old is pretty young.

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 2:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 185 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-26-2011 2:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 197 by Rahvin, posted 10-26-2011 5:07 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 183 of 759 (638846)
10-26-2011 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by New Cat's Eye
10-26-2011 1:34 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
I am curious as to what the importance of pointing out that the parents are gay is..... If it was a single mother, would THAT be pointed out? that is: if you think this child is doing this because they think he doesn't have the necessary "positive male role model" in his life.
Aside from that, this is fucking wrong on so many levels. 11 year old kids have zero clue what they want. The kid would probably get injections to have you change him into Optimus Prime or a T-Rex if you told him you could.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 1:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 2:46 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 188 by Panda, posted 10-26-2011 3:19 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 759 (638848)
10-26-2011 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by hooah212002
10-26-2011 2:26 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
I am curious as to what the importance of pointing out that the parents are gay is..... If it was a single mother, would THAT be pointed out?
Well, it does make the story as a whole more queer (zing!), that is: strange. And strange sells.
if you think this child is doing this because they think he doesn't have the necessary "positive male role model" in his life.
Oh, I would've went the other way with it: that the mother's have influenced him into this.
One of the argument of the anti-gay folks is that the gays are going to be recruiting. This does look like that.
Aside from that, this is fucking wrong on so many levels. 11 year old kids have zero clue what they want. The kid would probably get injections to have you change him into Optimus Prime or a T-Rex if you told him you could.
Interesting, that if you told him you could part... do you think the mother's could have had a major influence on this?
From the article:
quote:
Tommy began saying he was a girl when he was three years old, his parents said. He was learning sign language due to a speech impediment, and one of the first things he told his mothers was, "I am a girl."
At 3 years old, you're pretty much just copying stuff from your parents, don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 2:26 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-26-2011 2:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 187 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 3:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 185 of 759 (638850)
10-26-2011 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by New Cat's Eye
10-26-2011 1:34 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Some are calling this child abuse, some are insinuating its a step in the right direction. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but it doesn't seem right.... 11 years old is pretty young.
Apparently the parents agree with you, which is why they are: "giving their child hormone blockers that delay the onset of puberty, so that he can have more time to decide if he wants to change his gender."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 1:34 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 186 of 759 (638851)
10-26-2011 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by New Cat's Eye
10-26-2011 2:46 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
One of the argument of the anti-gay folks is that the gays are going to be recruiting. This does look like that.
Only if he wants to be a lesbian ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 2:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 3:19 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 187 of 759 (638852)
10-26-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by New Cat's Eye
10-26-2011 2:46 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Oh, I would've went the other way with it: that the mother's have influenced him into this.
Pretty big insinuation, don't you think?
This does look like that.
I disagree. I also don't dignify the actions or thoughts of the anti-gays by delving into their realm. Letting the child become a female does not equate recruitment since not all women are gay.
do you think the mother's could have had a major influence on this?
Nope. I think the parents are (IMO) "letting him express himself".
At 3 years old, you're pretty much just copying stuff from your parents, don't you think?
When my son was 2, his uncle dressed him up as a ballerina and had him prance around saying what a pretty princess he was. He doesn't wish to be a female, nor does he identify as one. Perhaps the young man in question genuinely identifies as being a female and just so happens to have gay parents and the fact that they are lesbians makes this story newsworthy.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 2:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 3:25 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 188 of 759 (638856)
10-26-2011 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by hooah212002
10-26-2011 2:26 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Hooah writes:
The kid would probably get injections to have you change him into Optimus Prime or a T-Rex if you told him you could.
Who wouldn't!
Hooah writes:
Aside from that, this is fucking wrong on so many levels.
This article:
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Health/story?id=6412567&...
has some interesting details.
Although I am unable to form a decision regarding delaying puberty (and I am very glad not to be Tommy's parents), I am not convinced that it is as black and white as it may first appear.
And from CS's link:
quote:
"This is child abuse. It's like performing liposuction on an anorexic child," said Dr Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University.
"It is a disorder of the mind. Not a disorder of the body. Dealing with it in this way is not dealing with the problem that truly exists. We shouldn't be mucking around with nature. We can't assume what the outcome will be," Professor McHugh said.
Paul McHugh is a practicing Catholic. He is a Democrat who describes himself as "religiously orthodox, politically liberal and culturally conservative -- a believer in marriage and the Marines, a supporter of institutions and family values." (from Wiki).
Dr. McHugh is also firmly anti-sexual reassignment, so I am not surprised by his hyperbole.
(It always makes me chuckle when doctors say "We shouldn't interfere with nature!".)
But, as I said above, I am not able to take a stance on this issue - so this post is just additional information.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 2:26 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 3:27 PM Panda has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 759 (638857)
10-26-2011 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dr Adequate
10-26-2011 2:59 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Apparently the parents agree with you, which is why they are: "giving their child hormone blockers that delay the onset of puberty, so that he can have more time to decide if he wants to change his gender."
What people are calling child abuse is: giving their child hormone blockers that delay the onset of puberty.
One of the argument of the anti-gay folks is that the gays are going to be recruiting. This does look like that.
Only if he wants to be a lesbian ...
Wait... if its a boy that's attracted to girls, but also wants to be a girl, does that make him gay? Or if he wants to be a girl and then is attracted to boys, would that make him gay? Maybe its not so clear cut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-26-2011 2:59 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-26-2011 4:49 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 759 (638860)
10-26-2011 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by hooah212002
10-26-2011 3:05 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Oh, I would've went the other way with it: that the mother's have influenced him into this.
Pretty big insinuation, don't you think?
Yeah, that's why I didn't go there.
This does look like that.
I disagree. I also don't dignify the actions or thoughts of the anti-gays by delving into their realm. Letting the child become a female does not equate recruitment since not all women are gay.
Oh, I dunno, a couple of lesbians raising a boy to want to be a girl would look bad to me. Bad enough to warrant somebody delving into their realm.
do you think the mother's could have had a major influence on this?
Nope. I think the parents are (IMO) "letting him express himself".
Why not?
At 3 years old, you're pretty much just copying stuff from your parents, don't you think?
When my son was 2, his uncle dressed him up as a ballerina and had him prance around saying what a pretty princess he was. He doesn't wish to be a female, nor does he identify as one.
*shrugs* Tiger Woods was raised to be a golfer and he loves it.
Perhaps the young man in question genuinely identifies as being a female and just so happens to have gay parents and the fact that they are lesbians makes this story newsworthy.
Perhaps, but like I said, at 3 years old he's signing that he wants to be a girl and at that age you're just copying everything so I'm not so sure this came from him and not the parents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 3:05 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 3:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 759 (638861)
10-26-2011 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Panda
10-26-2011 3:19 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Although I am unable to form a decision regarding delaying puberty
I do suppose that, assuming the child genuinely, himself, want to change his gender, it would be easier to go through the change before/during puberty than going through male puberty and then having to change all of that back into girl-stuffs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Panda, posted 10-26-2011 3:19 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Panda, posted 10-26-2011 3:43 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 192 of 759 (638863)
10-26-2011 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by New Cat's Eye
10-26-2011 3:25 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Oh, I dunno, a couple of lesbians raising a boy to want to be a girl would look bad to me. Bad enough to warrant somebody delving into their realm.
Why does it look bad to you? What does their sexual orientation have to do with it? Also, by "delve into their realm", I meant that I do not dignify the thoughts or actions of anti-gay bigots by pretending to know their thought process.
Why not?
Because I don't know this family and I try not to be presumptuous. I highly doubt this would be as big of an issue if it were a single mother who had an older daughter and this little boy wanted to be a girl too.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 3:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 3:39 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 759 (638866)
10-26-2011 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by hooah212002
10-26-2011 3:30 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Why does it look bad to you?
Because of the permanency. Its different than, say, my parents raising me to be Catholic because I could easily just leave it.
What does their sexual orientation have to do with it?
Not a whole lot.
Also, by "delve into their realm", I meant that I do not dignify the thoughts or actions of anti-gay bigots by pretending to know their thought process.
Oh, I thought you were talking about delving into the gay people's realm.
Why not?
Because I don't know this family and I try not to be presumptuous.
Hmm, you said you didn't think it could be the parents influencing him... but that requires presumptions just as well.
I highly doubt this would be as big of an issue if it were a single mother who had an older daughter and this little boy wanted to be a girl too.
I think I'd have a problem with this for any 11 year old, regardless of the parents' sexual orientation. But adding in that its two lesbians with a boy who wants to be a girl makes it more fishy to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 3:30 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 3:44 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 194 of 759 (638867)
10-26-2011 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by New Cat's Eye
10-26-2011 3:27 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
CS writes:
I do suppose that, assuming the child genuinely, himself, want to change his gender, it would be easier to go through the change before/during puberty than going through male puberty and then having to change all of that back into girl-stuffs.
Easier? Yes.
The right thing to do? I don't know. It depends.
There is advice (see link) that "treatment should not begin before Tanner stage 2 or 3: when female breasts have begun to bud, and boys have experienced a slight enlargement of the penis and scrotum".
Has Tommy reached this stage? Would Tommy pass "eligibility and readiness criteria for gender reassignment"?
As with most news stories, I have not been given enough information to make a judgement with any confidence - especially when the story lacks impartiality.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 3:27 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 195 of 759 (638868)
10-26-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by New Cat's Eye
10-26-2011 3:39 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
Oh, I dunno, a couple of lesbians raising a boy to want to be a girl would look bad to me.
But adding in that its two lesbians with a boy who wants to be a girl makes it more fishy to me.
quote:
What does their sexual orientation have to do with it?
Not a whole lot.
You sure? Maybe you could tell me what it has at all to do with it?
Hmm, you said you didn't think it could be the parents influencing him... but that requires presumptions just as well.
Not presuming something is a presumption in itself???

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-26-2011 3:39 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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