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Author Topic:   Evidence for a recent flood
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 91 of 404 (639282)
10-29-2011 11:15 PM


Over in the Great Debate thread Buz writes:
None has effectively refuted that what applies to the rock wall would apply to fossils deposited in strata deposited via a flood some 4300 years ago.
Hey Buz! Here's your chance!
This thread is dedicated to evidence for a recent flood.
Care to contribute some of that evidence?
(I just thought: are you banned from these threads? If so, maybe we could do a thread elsewhere on the same topic?)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 92 of 404 (639305)
10-30-2011 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Coyote
10-29-2011 11:15 PM


Coyote writes:
I just thought: are you banned from these threads?
I have not seen any announcement regarding Buz having his posting rights reinstated.
Unfortunately, he is banned from the science forum for continually not supplying the very thing you are asking him to supply: evidence.
And since he was unable to even create a PNT ( What Constitutes By Definition, Evidence Of Supernatural Phenomena ), I doubt he would answer your request to anything close to your satisfaction.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Coyote, posted 10-29-2011 11:15 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4160 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 93 of 404 (639380)
10-31-2011 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Coyote
10-25-2011 7:51 PM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
In Siberia there are 5 million woolly mammoths frozen. The mammoths are crushed as if something came on top of them and pushed them down. Many are standing, kneeling or looking up. Some still have undigested food in their stomachs. Fresh flowers have been found in there mouths, which they were chewing on before they were fast frozen.
How did that massive, violent death happen? How did the woolly mammoths freeze so quickly and turn into blocks of ice? Did it happen over millions of years or did it happen quickly with lots of water and catastrophe?
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Coyote, posted 10-25-2011 7:51 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Pressie, posted 10-31-2011 5:55 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 95 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-31-2011 6:33 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 97 by Pressie, posted 10-31-2011 7:22 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 102 by Panda, posted 10-31-2011 9:22 AM Portillo has replied
 Message 109 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-31-2011 8:34 PM Portillo has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 94 of 404 (639382)
10-31-2011 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Portillo
10-31-2011 5:03 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Portillo writes:
In Siberia there are 5 million woolly mammaths frozen The mammaths are crushed as if something came on top of them and pushed them down. Many are standing, kneeling or looking up.
Oh, is that so? Sources please. This baby here doesn't look as if it was crushed, or something came down on top of him or as if he was pushed down.
Portillo writes:
Some still have undigested food in their stomachs. Fresh flowers have been found in there mouths, which they were chewing on before they were fast frozen.
This normally happens when animals fall into very cold water. They get frozen very quickly. Nothing involving a flood.
Portillo writes:
How did that massive, violent death happen? How did the woolly mammaths freeze so quickly and turn into blocks of ice?
Falling into a frozen lake, such as when the ice breaks suddenly. Easy. It happens today.
Portillo writes:
Did it happen over millions of years or did it happen it happen quickly with lots of water and catastrophe?
Mammoth fossils fall into two main groups, one ranging in age from 45,000 years to 30,000 years and a smaller number of remains from 14-11,000 years old. Therefore not even one flood, if it has anything to do with floods, anyway.
Mammoths also haven’t been around for millions of years. Only a few thousand. Something like 45 000 years.
Edited by Pressie, : Added link
Edited by Pressie, : Changed spelling of the word "therfore" to "therefore"

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Panda, posted 10-31-2011 7:56 AM Pressie has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 95 of 404 (639383)
10-31-2011 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Portillo
10-31-2011 5:03 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
In Siberia there are 5 million woolly mammaths frozen. The mammaths are crushed as if something came on top of them and pushed them down. Many are standing, kneeling or looking up.
Yeah, if something came on top of me and pushed me down, I'd be standing. 'Cos of down basically being the same as up for the purposes of creationist reasoning.
How did that massive, violent death happen?
Well, I'm gonna suggest that it happened non-magically, like everything else.
For example ... maybe some of them ... froze to death? That would be compatible with them being dead. And frozen.
Did it happen over millions of years or did it happen quickly with lots of water and catastrophe?
The various frozen remains date to different times over spans of tens of thousands of years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Portillo, posted 10-31-2011 5:03 AM Portillo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Pressie, posted 10-31-2011 6:59 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 96 of 404 (639385)
10-31-2011 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Dr Adequate
10-31-2011 6:33 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Portillo writes:
In Siberia there are 5 million woolly mammaths frozen. The mammaths are crushed as if something came on top of them and pushed them down. Many are standing, kneeling or looking up.
Dr Adequate, this was such an absolutely ridiculously stupid "argument" that I didn't even pick it up. Yeah, sure, they will be standing and looking up when they are finished being crushed by tons of water and sediment falling on them.
PS. Did you notice that he can’t even spell the word mammoths, but that he tried to make an argument on mammaths?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-31-2011 6:33 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 97 of 404 (639386)
10-31-2011 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Portillo
10-31-2011 5:03 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Portillo writes:
How did that massive, violent death happen? How did the woolly mammaths freeze so quickly and turn into blocks of ice? Did it happen over millions of years......
Portillo, are you telling porkies again? Could you please provide an example of any scientist ever that has claimed that process of forming the woolly mammoths remains we find today happened over millions of years? You know, we are educated on this forum. Porkies don't really impress us. The porkie-teller just looses a lot of face. Your sources of any scientist ever indicating that the remains of mammoths we find today are a result of processes happening over millions of years?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Portillo, posted 10-31-2011 5:03 AM Portillo has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 98 of 404 (639389)
10-31-2011 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Pressie
10-31-2011 5:55 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
{abe} Oops. This should have been a reply to Portillo - but I misclicked. (I expect he wouldn't have replied, anyway.)
Portillo writes:
In Siberia there are 5 million woolly mammaths frozen.
Ok, let's have a look at AnswersInGenesis:
quote:
The top expert on woolly mammoths in Siberia is Nikolai Vereshchagin, who has spent nearly half a century researching the mammoth fauna.
quote:
In a report in the Smithsonian magazine, [J. M.] Stewart refers to an estimate made by [Nikolai] Vereshchagin...
quote:
If each tusk weighs 100 pounds (45 kg), a reasonable estimate, [J. M. Stewart referring to] Vereshchagin’s [estimated] numbers would suggest that five million mammoths are buried in this region!
Who was Nikolai Vereshchagin?
Was he the "top expert on woolly mammoths in Siberia...who has spent nearly half a century researching the mammoth fauna[sic]" as described by AiG?
Well, if he was - then he has since almost disappeared - the references to him are either on creationist sites or in reference to cave lions.
I am also left asking myself:
Why do creationist web-sites have to reply on unverifiable quotes from out-of-print magazines referencing obscure palaeontologists to support their arguments?
I will leave you to answer that question yourself.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Pressie, posted 10-31-2011 5:55 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Pressie, posted 10-31-2011 8:21 AM Panda has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 99 of 404 (639394)
10-31-2011 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Panda
10-31-2011 7:56 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
I'll answer you, as I think Portillo can't answer the post, but can only do quote-mining from people with with exact opposite viewpoints than his, but will still pretend that the quote "proves" creation.
I looked him up after your answer.
Nicolai Vereshchagin
ncbi writes:
Neurologist who introduced computed tomography to the former Soviet Union
This is funny:
After qualifying he specialised in neurology, but was increasingly drawn to an administrative career, becoming, in 1965, head of the human resources department of the Academy of Medical Sciences of the Soviet Union. For almost 10 years (1966-75) Vereshchagin worked in the central committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union as an instructor in the department for science and education institutions. However, being an apparatchik he continued to hold an honorary position as senior researcher at the Institute of Neurology.
So a neorologist being "The top expert on woolly mammoths in Siberia is Nikolai Vereshchagin, who has spent nearly half a century researching the mammoth fauna."
I feel sorry for the real experts on mammoths for having to compete with a neurologist!
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Panda, posted 10-31-2011 7:56 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Panda, posted 10-31-2011 8:23 AM Pressie has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 100 of 404 (639397)
10-31-2011 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Pressie
10-31-2011 8:21 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Pressie writes:
Neurologist who introduced computed tomography to the former Soviet Union
I did see that 'Nicolai Vereshchagin' - but I think he just has the same name (only with a 'c' not a 'k').
Type "Nikolai Vereshchagin cave lion" into google and you will find references to a palaeontologist...
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Pressie, posted 10-31-2011 8:21 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 101 of 404 (639400)
10-31-2011 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Panda
10-31-2011 8:23 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Maybe, maybe not. It might help if Portillo gave us the exact references to how he got to the number of 5 million mammoth fossils? I can't find a reference. Except for creationist "sources", where they claim someone gave those numbers. But we know that they always tell porkies.
Portillo, a reference?
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 102 of 404 (639401)
10-31-2011 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Portillo
10-31-2011 5:03 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Coyote writes:
Let's get back to the topic of "Evidence for a recent flood."
So far I haven't seen any serious evidence offered in support of a recent flood. Have I missed something?
Portillo in reply writes:
In Siberia there are 5 million woolly mammaths frozen. The mammaths are crushed as if something came on top of them and pushed them down. Many are standing, kneeling or looking up. Some still have undigested food in their stomachs. Fresh flowers have been found in there mouths, which they were chewing on before they were fast frozen.
How did that massive, violent death happen? How did the woolly mammaths freeze so quickly and turn into blocks of ice? Did it happen over millions of years or did it happen quickly with lots of water and catastrophe?
Why do you think that the Flood could rapidly freeze the mammoths?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Portillo, posted 10-31-2011 5:03 AM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by NoNukes, posted 10-31-2011 11:57 AM Panda has replied
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Panda has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 103 of 404 (639409)
10-31-2011 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Panda
10-31-2011 9:22 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Panda writes:
Portillio writes:
How did that massive, violent death happen? How did the woolly mammaths freeze so quickly and turn into blocks of ice? Did it happen over millions of years or did it happen quickly with lots of water and catastrophe?
Why do you think that the Flood could rapidly freeze the mammoths?
Portillio seems to make reference here to Kent Hovind's inane wankering that the Flood was caused by a massive ice meteor (comet?) that made craters on the moon, created the rings of Saturn and froze woolly mammoths standing up, started an ice age, and touched of Noah's flood, among other things.
See the video below from about 2:15 to about 8:00 or however long you can stand it.
Of course, the questions of why Portillio believes that Hovind's snow job and why Portillio accepts without any credible source that millions of frozen mammoths have been discovered is something you'll have to work out for yourself.
In order for this tale to constitute evidence, we need the frozen mammoths and an explanation that doesn't make people tear up from laughing.
Ha-ha stop it!!! Stop it!! Wiping tears from eyes. Ha-ha!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Panda, posted 10-31-2011 9:22 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Panda, posted 10-31-2011 12:31 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-31-2011 9:31 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 104 of 404 (639414)
10-31-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by NoNukes
10-31-2011 11:57 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
NoNukes writes:
Portillio seems to make reference here to Kent Hovind's inane wankering that the Flood was caused by a massive ice meteor (comet?) that made craters on the moon, created the rings of Saturn and froze woolly mammoths standing up, started an ice age, and touched of Noah's flood, among other things.
Ah. Well, I will wait for Portillo's explanation as I cannot face watching another Kent Hovind video - one was enough.
But even from your summary of Kent's position it is not obvious how a 'flood + ice-age' can rapidly freeze mammoths mid-stride while in deep flood-water.
Nor does it supply any evidence of a recent flood - it instead predicts that there will be evidence of a recent 'flood + ice meteor + ice-age'.
This does not help the creationist's case at all.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by NoNukes, posted 10-31-2011 11:57 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 10-31-2011 3:21 PM Panda has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 105 of 404 (639426)
10-31-2011 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Panda
10-31-2011 12:31 PM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Not to mention mammoths "standing up".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Panda, posted 10-31-2011 12:31 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
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