Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What the KJV Bible says about the Noah Flood
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 181 of 306 (639469)
11-01-2011 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by ICANT
10-31-2011 5:25 PM


Re: Single land mass
The fundamental things apply. And this says that the water and the land were seperated; the 'HOW' is for each generation's knowledge status to debate.
The other fundamental factor is the 'WHY'. Of note this verse apears immediately prior to the emergence of life forms, some of which live on land and some on water. This makes it an anticipatory action for the sustainence and habitat of various kinds of forthcoming life forms.
The scientific formular applicable here, and the only one which is coherent, is thus:
THE DINNER TABLE IS READY FOR THE GUESTS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ICANT, posted 10-31-2011 5:25 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 182 of 306 (639491)
11-01-2011 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by ICANT
11-01-2011 12:01 AM


Re: Single land mass
This is just a quick reply as I'm a bit pushed for time.
ICANT writes:
So it makes more sense to you that the writer used Earth in Genesis 10:25 to mean tribal or national split/division rather than the words he used in 10:5, 20, 31, and 32
Did the writer use Earth or did the translators? In the time of Moses would the writer have any concept of Earth? Earth, with a capital "E", is the name of the planet. This is discussed in the thread I gave you the link for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 11-01-2011 12:01 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ICANT, posted 11-01-2011 8:57 AM Trixie has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 183 of 306 (639498)
11-01-2011 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Trixie
11-01-2011 4:42 AM


Re: Single land mass
Hi Trixie,
Trixie writes:
Did the writer use Earth or did the translators?
Genesis 1:1 The Hebrew word ארץ is translated Earth.
All definitions I give will be from Genesius's Hebrew Lexicon.
ארץ means:
earth
1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
ארץ is translated Earth in Genesis 1:1, 2, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 29, 30. This is just the first chapter in the Bible.
גוי translated nations means:
1) nation, people
משפחה translated families means:
clan
1) family
2) tribe
These two Hebrew words are used in Genesis chapter 10 in verses 5, 20, 31, 32.
You find sandwiched between verse 20 and 31 verse 10 which has the Hebrew word: ארץ translated Earth.
So no the translators did not supply the Hebrew words they supplied the English words for the Hebrew words that is what translation is.
Trixie writes:
In the time of Moses would the writer have any concept of Earth? Earth, with a capital "E", is the name of the planet.
The man who was privileged to view God and spent 40 days with Him would have had all the knowledge he needed to write what God told Him to write.
That is why he could write about the creation, the flood, the scattering of the people and the division of the Earth.
Trixie writes:
This is discussed in the thread I gave you the link for.
Did you read the thread you are refering me too?
I have 15 posts in that thread.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Trixie, posted 11-01-2011 4:42 AM Trixie has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 184 of 306 (639500)
11-01-2011 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by IamJoseph
11-01-2011 12:58 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
What Genesis says about the Noah flood. The opening preamble in the text:
Pre-amble: Pre means before the start.
Are you saying that chapter 6 has nothing to do with the flood of Noah?
IamJoseph writes:
And that is why no wild animals are listed.
quote:
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
What animal is left out of "every living thing of all flesh"?
If it was alive there was to be at least a male and a female on the ark.
Are you saying there was no wild animals alive on the planet Earth at the time Noah lived?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by IamJoseph, posted 11-01-2011 12:58 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by IamJoseph, posted 11-01-2011 5:11 PM ICANT has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 185 of 306 (639546)
11-01-2011 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ICANT
11-01-2011 9:16 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Yes, 'THOU AND THY HOUSEHOLLD' [only] is the preamble relating to Noah and his possessions, confirmed with 'RIGHTIOUS IN "THIS" [Noah's] GENERATION', the size of the boat and that not a single wild animal is listed.
'ALL FLESH' refers to said animals and community in Noah's immediate region only; it is how this was seen from that town's POV. Any other reading conflicts with the textual coherence, and becomes inconsistant with the otherwise pritine accuracy of historical details of the texts which is superior in its veracity to anything else on record. This is an excellently ilntelligent text and must be read that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ICANT, posted 11-01-2011 9:16 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Trixie, posted 11-02-2011 4:39 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 200 by ICANT, posted 11-02-2011 11:02 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 186 of 306 (639571)
11-02-2011 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by IamJoseph
11-01-2011 5:11 PM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
IamJoseph writes:
'ALL FLESH' refers to said animals and community in Noah's immediate region only
How do you reconcile that with
Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female
and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
The text states that everything not on the ark will die in the flood and that those animals on the ark will provide "seed" for after the flood.
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
You may believe that the text is an exaggeration of a local flood, and you may be right, but there is no way that you can claim textual support saying wild animals weren't included.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by IamJoseph, posted 11-01-2011 5:11 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 4:57 AM Trixie has replied
 Message 192 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 10:05 AM Trixie has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 187 of 306 (639573)
11-02-2011 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Trixie
11-02-2011 4:39 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Not a single wild animal [non-domestic] is listed. Clean animals refer to consumable ones [which includes some creepy crawlies and large insects]; unclean refers to non-consumable beasts of burden.
I listed numerous governing factors [text verses & words], which cannot be overlooked, bypassed or disregarded; these are only alignable with my position. Only the life forms in Noah's household/possessions were called for [the text]; only these entered the ark [the absence of any wild animals in the text].
This was an agricultural epoch of humanity, its people having large Texas style lands with a host of life forms utilized for food and trading. They usually never ventured outside their towns for most of their lives; many never even knew there were other lands or nations. This regional flood appeared to them as a global one, and the writings reflect this authentically of its period - aka 'SPEAKING IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE".
All anti-creationists focus on what they can impound on and connect with their agenda, while playing 3 blind mice of millions of stats introduced for the first time to humanity in the Hebrew writings. The Hebrew writings are NOT a Walt Disney story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Trixie, posted 11-02-2011 4:39 AM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Trixie, posted 11-02-2011 5:25 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 201 by ICANT, posted 11-02-2011 11:14 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 188 of 306 (639574)
11-02-2011 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by IamJoseph
11-02-2011 4:57 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
This thread is about what the text says, not what you take it to mean. Once again, how do you reconcile the quotes I provided with your assertion that the texts say only Noah's domesticated animals went onboard the ark?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 4:57 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 5:52 AM Trixie has replied
 Message 191 by jar, posted 11-02-2011 9:49 AM Trixie has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 189 of 306 (639579)
11-02-2011 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Trixie
11-02-2011 5:25 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
quote:
Once again, how do you reconcile the quotes I provided with your assertion that the texts say only Noah's domesticated animals went onboard the ark?
I did, catering to every word in your quote, also then aligning it with the actual texts you left out!
The text is not exaggerating any place, but speaking authentic to its contextual period. Tasmania never existed then - and the boat landed nearby in the same region - near Mount Ararat! I can list a host of factors and texts you guys blatantly ignore. Comprehension of the text is the first measuring yardstick of any pretend science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Trixie, posted 11-02-2011 5:25 AM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Trixie, posted 11-02-2011 9:45 AM IamJoseph has not replied
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 11-02-2011 10:25 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 190 of 306 (639591)
11-02-2011 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by IamJoseph
11-02-2011 5:52 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
You have not addressed what I wrote and saying you have doesn't make it so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 5:52 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 191 of 306 (639592)
11-02-2011 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Trixie
11-02-2011 5:25 AM


look at what the God characters say
The God character in the Genesis 6 version of the flood myth has this to say.
quote:
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Now there is little local in that statement. It clearly says "from the face of the earth".
The God character in the version of the story in Genesis 7 goes even further.
quote:
4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
The God character in the Genesis 6 fable just kills off man and beast and creeping things and fowls of the air while the God character in the Genesis 7 fable says he will kill off every living substance.
In both fables though "From off the face of the earth" is specifically stated.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Trixie, posted 11-02-2011 5:25 AM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 10:20 AM jar has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 192 of 306 (639595)
11-02-2011 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Trixie
11-02-2011 4:39 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Which part?
quote:
Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female
and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
The text states that everything not on the ark will die in the flood and that those animals on the ark will provide "seed" for after the flood.
No it does not. It says clean & unclean beasts are to be entered into the arc. I addressed this in my response. The seed factor does not impact - it is required in a regional or global famine.
quote:
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Its not about 'and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth'. Its about 'and every living substance that I have made [the life forms of Noah's possessions were made by God as well as those which will die] will I destroy from off the face of the earth [Noah's earth region which Noah lives and knows]'
When the text is comprehensively employed, there is no other reading of it. Your and many others are disconnectiung the applicable factors in the text, and then a blatantly impossible and incoherent result is condoned: the boat size and the total absence of a single wild animal does not align with your conclusion. A host of other factors in the text also contradict your conclusion, especially the view this is not a superior literary work of the highest wisdom - clearly its grammar proves this. Grammar is like math; the verses are like equations; one cannot leave out pivotal equations and keep shouting Eureka!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Trixie, posted 11-02-2011 4:39 AM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Coragyps, posted 11-02-2011 10:20 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 202 by ICANT, posted 11-02-2011 11:36 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 193 of 306 (639598)
11-02-2011 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by jar
11-02-2011 9:49 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
quote:
The God character in the Genesis 6 version of the flood myth has this to say.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now there is little local in that statement. It clearly says "from the face of the earth".
No sir, it does not say 'from the face of the earth'. It points only to those outside of Noah's possessions [the text you ignored]. We find this fully confirmed when we check the geneology listing, and a clear premise says Tasmanians, Norweegians, New Yorkers were not around; while Babylonians, Egyptians, Phoenecians, Medianites, etc - never mentioned it, even though they have various forms of writings and no history of being wiped out.
The God character in the version of the story in Genesis 7 goes even further.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The God character in the Genesis 6 fable just kills off man and beast and creeping things and fowls of the air while the God character in the Genesis 7 fable says he will kill off every living substance.
Every living creature in Noah's region. There is no contradictions here. Let me show you an exact replicated scenario in the same book of Genesis. When Sodom was destroyed, its people saw it as the world was destroyed. This is in the text, whereby a man [Lot] who escaped the disaster by hiding in a mountain crevice with his two daughters. When he was asleep, his daughters thought ot concieving by him - to preserve humanity. Its not a fable if it lists names, places and dates, with evidence this is correctly portrayed in the texts. Fables have no verifiable locations such as historical mountains and rivers.
quote:
In both fables though "From off the face of the earth" is specifically stated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I'm not handicaped. Look:
Alexander: "I will destroy the Persian king Darius from off the face of the earth".
Tasmania excluded.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 11-02-2011 9:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by jar, posted 11-02-2011 10:27 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 203 by ICANT, posted 11-02-2011 11:51 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 194 of 306 (639599)
11-02-2011 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by IamJoseph
11-02-2011 10:05 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
the total absence of a single wild animal does not align with your conclusion.
"And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth."
Tame raven, obviously......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 10:05 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 10:27 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 195 of 306 (639600)
11-02-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by IamJoseph
11-02-2011 5:52 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
I can list a host of factors and texts you guys blatantly ignore.
Then back up your assertions with the Hebrew text that supports that only domesticated animals were allowed onboard the ark.
Back up your assertion that unclean animals refer to beasts of burden.
IamJoseph writes:
Comprehension of the text is the first measuring yardstick of any pretend science.
Then you missed the boat a long time ago.
We can start understand with your presentation of the texts asked for in this post.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by IamJoseph, posted 11-02-2011 5:52 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024