Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,809 Year: 3,066/9,624 Month: 911/1,588 Week: 94/223 Day: 5/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What the KJV Bible says about the Noah Flood
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 239 of 306 (639792)
11-03-2011 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by IamJoseph
11-03-2011 7:56 PM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
It also means the term earth, in this instance, refers to solid earth as opposed water.
I agree as in Genesis 1:1 there was no ocean.
IamJoseph writes:
The solid matter [earth] on this planet, was covered with water.
Not in Genesis 1:1. It was not covered with water until some time later as it is found covered with water in Genesis 1:2.
You say how do you know there was no water in Genesis 1:1?
Simple, all you have to do is read the history of the day the Lord God created the Earth and the heavens. Genesis 2:4
Genesis 2:5 there was no plants, and no rain.
Genesis 2:6 there was a mist that watered the whole face of the Earth.
Genesis 2:7 God formed man from the dust of the ground.
Genesis 2:8 God planted a Garden in Eden.
Genesis 2:9 God caused trees to grow out of the ground.
Genesis 2:10 A river went out of Eden and watered the Garden.
Genesis 2:19 God formed animals and fowl out of the ground.
Genesis 2:22 God made a woman out of a rib he took from the man.
There is no sea or seas mentioned neither is there any fish mentioned.
IamJoseph writes:
There was yet no light focused on this planet as today;
You base that upon what?
IamJoseph writes:
there was no seperation of day and night,
I agree there was no separation of light and darkness as darkness did not exist in Genesis 1:1.
Darkness did not exist until it is found in Genesis 1:2.
IamJoseph writes:
1.9. 'The dry was called earth': this aligns with V1, namely all dry land [not submerged in water, and solid] is called earth.
How can verse 9 align with verse 1? There was no water in verse 1.
IamJoseph writes:
Also, this marks the first thresold of seperations on the earth [this planet] of water from land;
The text does not say anything about the water and land being separated.
It simply says the dry land appeared when the water gathered to one place.
IamJoseph writes:
Now you have gone to chapter 7 - another time, another specific sector zoomed into. This is well after all life forms and many lands and regions existed and seperated, and the focus is on one small region, not all the earth, namely of one region of Noah. It does not concern Adam, Cain, Tasmania, Egypt, Mount Everest, etc. The text is only referring to Noah's region. Note the opening verse in this chapter 7 which you disregarded:
Are you saying chapter 6 and chapter 7 are talking about two arks and two floods that Noah went through?
IamJoseph writes:
7/1: 'Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before Me in this generation'
It refers to Noah in this [his] generation. COME THOU; ALL THY HOUSE; THIS [NOAH'S] GENERATION; NOAH'S ENVIRONMENT.
Are you saying this means something other than what this says?
quote:
7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
We got Noah and we got Noah's sons that equals 2 generations.
Noah and his wife went into the ark.
Shem Ham and Japheth and their wives went into the ark.
House in Genesis 7:1 should have been translated family which is one of the meanings of the Hebrew word bayith.
IamJosephIndeed and most impacting, it does NOT say that Noah was rightious, because this is limited to Noah's generation, his community. Indeed, Noah may not have been found rightious in another generation of town or community. The verse is also saying that Noah's rightiousness was 'limited'; that most people around him were abolsutely corrupted beyond the point of saving, unless they change their ways.
quote:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Noah was righteous because he believed and obeyed God.
If you think Abrahan or Moses or you are more righteous than Noah was you are in deep trouble.
Abrahan comitted adultry and bare a son by Sarah's handmaid.
Moses failed to obey God and speak to the rock and did not enter the promised land because of that disobedience.
You will have to examine your own life.
But I will let you in on a little secret. I am not worthy now nor will I ever be for the grace of God that has been poured out to me. I do not deserve to go to heaven for any reason other than I have been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ who is the only way to heaven.
IamJoseph writes:
Indeed Noah turned out to be a drunk; as soon as the flood was over he planted 'vine' [booze!] not grains.
Do you know how long it would take the grape vine to grow and produce fruit.
But then if his squezed grape juice had never fermented before why would he expect it to ferment after the flood?
IamJoseph writes:
YOU NOAH JUST BARELY WAS FOUND RIGHTIOUS.
What do you back that assertion up with?
IamJoseph writes:
Noah: "BLANK!" [Gee, thanks for saving me, my family, my possessions - I don't care for others].
After being a wittness for 120 years to everyone that came by and asked what he was doing building that monstrosity and him telling them God was going to flood the earth what would you expect him to say?
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
2. All the high hills that were under the whole heaven was covered with 15 cubits of water.
This is again referring to Noah and his generation, not the opening V1 which refers to the point before water and land were seperated globally. Here, V7/1 applies, its not connected with Chapter 1; its about one particular region here - not the whole planet; its talking to and about Noah and Noah's [this/your] generation only. The animals and humans in Europe or Egypt are not referred to here, else V7/1 becomes compromised to the extent of being superfluous, even incoherent. Wrong way - go back.
What part of ALL do you not understand?
What is your meaning for ALL?
What part of under the WHOLE HEAVEN do you not understand?
What is your meaning for whole heaven?
IamJoseph writes:
The size of reading the length of a cubit is aligned only with the size of the ark; the measurements are not as you defined. It is roughly about one side being about 50 feet as we know 50 feet today;
Where do you get that nonsense from?
What did they use to measure with?
quote:
Some general facts about Cubits: Cubit means elbow or forearm. A cubit is an ancient unit of measure used throughout the Old Testament. The Cubit originates as early as 3000 BC (about 5000 years ago), and is the distance from the elbow to the end of the middle finger, approx. 17"-22", or 45.4 - 55.5cm. Because everyone's cubit is different, a leader or foreman would have all of the workers use his standardized cubit rod (measuring reed) at construction sites. Cubit, KYOO biht, is a measure of length used by several early civilizations. While no one knows exactly when this measure was established. The cubit was commonly used by many early people including: the Babylonians, the Egyptians, and the Israelites.
Using my measurment from my elbow to the tip of my middle finger is 24 inches.
My hand is 4.25 inches wide and using that measurment of 6 handwidths would give a cubit as 25 1/2 inches.
IamJoseph writes:
Indeed, Christianity cannot survive if those laws were accepted as per the law of Moses. Christianity would have then had no choice but to disregard and/or fulfill away those interpretations [as its life saver];
Gentiles are not under the law and have never been under the law of Moses.
The Church was not organized and told to keep the law of Moses.
I am under the law of Grace and have two commandments to keep.
Love the Lord my God with all my being and love my neighbor as myself.
If you disagree start a thread and we will discuss it.
IamJoseph writes:
there is chaos and humanity is pointing to disaster ahead.
I agree.
According to my God all those who will not accept the sacrifice offered for their sins on the cross of Calvary is going to end up in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.
No one deserves eternal life with God.
No one can buy it.
No one can earn it.
No one can do enough works to obtain it.
The only thing a man can do is accept it as a free gift from God.
John 3:16-18, Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 3:23-28, 6:23.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by IamJoseph, posted 11-03-2011 7:56 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by IamJoseph, posted 11-04-2011 1:40 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 240 of 306 (639793)
11-03-2011 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by IamJoseph
11-03-2011 8:28 PM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
"Noah's possessions"
I know you believe that now back it up with text.
IamJoseph writes:
NOAH'S SURROUNDS ONLY;
If you don't have anything but 7:1 to support that assertion you are guilty of cherry picking and taking a verse out of context.
IamJoseph writes:
There you go! Do you now see the ubsurdity of your take here?
Who is being absured?
quote:
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
If I am seeing correctly that says clean beast by sevens.
Unclean beasts by two, male and female.
quote:
Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
Now if I am seeing straight that says Noah and his wife went into the ark. It also says Shem, Ham, and Japheth along with their wives went into the ark.
Then it says every beast after his kind and all other critters boarded the ark.
They went in male and female of all flesh as God had commanded.
Then God shut the door.
If Noah had not already put 5 each of all clean animals on the ark they didn't make it according to the text.
IamJoseph writes:
Of course! You have connected a global pre-life point [chapter 1 - the creation chapter], with a later post-life scenario. Its like saying if there is a tsunami in Asia before life existed with Briton today. It disregards the opening verse in chapter 7, which is not applicable in chapter 1.
quote:
quote:
Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life..
Is the three verses presented above cherry picking?
Now you can stop your bald faced lying or you and I are done.
I am going to ask the question 1 more time and I expect an honest answer or I am done.
There is nothing in those 3 verses from chapter 1 conecting anything to them.
If your reading ability and comphrension is that bad you need to spend the time you are spending here at EvC going to night school and learn a little English.
IamJoseph writes:
"THEREFORE YOU SHALL NOT FOLLOW A CORRUPTED MAJORITY/MULTITUDE." This refers to Christianty.
Who are you quoting in this quote?
BTW if you know of someone who believes as I do would you please give me their email address as I would love to find somebody, anybody that believes as I do.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by IamJoseph, posted 11-03-2011 8:28 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 242 of 306 (639868)
11-04-2011 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by IamJoseph
11-03-2011 10:03 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
Its not about every living thing changes.
How and where does it change.
quote:
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
This text says EVERY living thing of ALL flesh.
It preceeds Genesis 7:1 and would not be limited by that verse.
So for your wild idea to be true it would have to read.
And of some living thing of some flesh.....
OR
It would have to read: And of every living thing of all flesh in Noah's household, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark.
Well Noah and his wife would qualify or one of his sons and his wife would qualify.
All of them could not get on the ark as there was 8 of them.
It doesn't say what you say it does.
It does not infer what you say it says.
Therefore you have your head stuck in the sand with ear plugs in your ears and do not have the understanding of a fifth grader. I checked with one last night.
Then we come to th following verse.
quote:
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Two of ALL flesh that had the breath of life went into the ark unto Noah.
To satisfy your assertions it would have to say:
Two of SOME flesh that had the breath of life went into the ark unto Noah.
OR
Two of ALL flesh that had the breath of life IN NOAH'S HOUSEHOLD went into the ark unto Noah.
The text does not say nor imply what you say it says.
Just keep your head stuck in the sand with the ear plugs in and your logical thinking in your hip pocket and you will be able to convince yourself that you are correct or whoever it is that you are following is correct.
But be assured the text says EVERY and ALL and those two words does not leave out anything that had the breath of life in it.
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
15 cubits is a small amount; it has no relevency with covering the earth. There is a diminishing series of rejections, but it won't result in a backdown for sure.
15 cubits of water on the highest hill under the heaven does not leave any dry land.
Yes it is! It can only apply to Noah's small region. How or why else would a boat rise, be saved and all the world be submerged?
If the land mass of the world was as it is today with the peak of Mt Everest being the tallest point of dry land above sea level covered with 15 cubits of water, what point on earth would be sticking above the water.
The text says:
quote:
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Now if ALL the high hills was covered that existed under the whole heaven there would be nothing protuding above the water that covered Mt Everest.
The text does not say some of the high hills but ALL.
The text does not say the high hills in Noah's region but ALL THE HIGH HILLS UNDER THE WHOLE (ENTIRE) HEAVEN.
IamJoseph writes:
How or why else would a boat rise, be saved and all the world be submerged?
One day maybe you will understand the difference in a boat and an ark. But I am beginning to have my doubts.
A boat is a vessel that is designed to travel through the water. Most have a v bottom with a pointed bow and a narrower stern than the beam.
Noah's ark was built with the same dimensions of width from the front to the back. The length is the same from side to side. The height was the same from end to end and side to side.
In other words it was a rectangle cube.
Now the ark was sitting on dry land when it was built. The water rose and the ark floated. It does not make any difference whether the water rose just enough to float the ark or whether the water rose 50 miles deep on all the earth. If the water then receeded somehow to the point there was dry land below the ark when it settled it would be on dry land.
So what is the problem you are trying to allude to with your statement?
There would be no problem for the ark floating and keeping those on board safe whether it was a local flood or a world wide flood.
IamJoseph writes:
15 cubits is a small amount of water which can only apply to a regional flood. If the entire planet was covered with water, as in before the water and land was seperated in Chapter 1, there would be no mountains!
Is your understanding that clouded?
The mountains would exist whether they were covered with water or not.
The tallest mountain in the world from base to top is Mount Lamlam with an elevation of 1334 feet above sea level. but from the base to the top it is 37,820 feet tall.
Drop Mt Everest in the trench beside Lamlam and it would be covered by over a mile of water.
There are mountains and mountain ranges that are competely covered with water with only a few peaks sticking out of the water. Those peaks are called Islands.
So what problem do you see with the ark floating if all the mountains of the earth was covered with water?
Why would the mountains not exist if the were covered with water?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by IamJoseph, posted 11-03-2011 10:03 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by IamJoseph, posted 11-04-2011 8:53 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 243 of 306 (639893)
11-04-2011 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by IamJoseph
11-04-2011 1:40 AM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
I am saying chapter 1 refers to creation; chapter 7 refers to a localised story of a human community.
That is not what I asked you.
I asked the question:
quote:
Are you saying chapter 6 and chapter 7 are talking about two arks and two floods that Noah went through?
Please answer the question.
IamJoseph writes:
'WHATEVER SARAH TELLS YOU TO DO - DO IT'
Is this a quote? If so from who and where.
OR is it just an assertion of IamJoseph?
One thing for sure that statement is not in the Bible.
IamJoseph writes:
The vine is the quickest producing plant of all. Noah wanted wine; he should have planted grain for food.
A tomato plant will produce fruit in 55 to 90 days from planting.
A grape vine will produce fruit in 2 years from planting.
IamJoseph writes:
Its qualified by IN HIS GENERATION;
All of the animals alive on all the dry land existed in his generation.
But nothing you said refuts the fact the text says all, every, whole. You can't get rid of those words by simply saying they were not in his generation.
IamJoseph writes:
He was made a witness, but he failed bceaiuse he did not implore anyone; he never argued the case with God as did Abraham and Moses.
I don't find where God told Noah to witness to anyone.
God told Noah to build an ark and to gather food for himself and his family along with the animals that would make the journey with him. God told him there was to be 7 clean animals and a male and female of all unclean animals.
He wasn't told to do anything else. So get off his back.
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
What part of ALL do you not understand?
Chapter 1 and 7 are of different scenarios. V7/1 applies to the Noah story.
I will ask the question again.
What part of ALL do you not understand?
What is your definition of ALL?
Take the parts of this post that I did not reply to and make a thread if you desire to pursue a discussion about them. We only have just over 50 posts in this thread to discuss the flood.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by IamJoseph, posted 11-04-2011 1:40 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by IamJoseph, posted 11-04-2011 9:27 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 246 of 306 (639939)
11-05-2011 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by IamJoseph
11-04-2011 9:27 PM


Re: ONCE MORE WITH FEELINGS.
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
It shows again you are making statements which indicate you have not studied this writings in any measure of merit,
Well if you had said what Sarah said I could have found it with no problem.
quote:
Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
IamJoseph writes:
Sarah knew and saw more than Abraham.
Where do you get that hair brained idea from?
Do you have any idea how to read and understand the Bible?
You need to know the answer to 5 questions and the proper application rule before you can understand any text or report a story.
The 5 point question rule I learned in a journalism class and then restudied it in college in Understanding the Bible class.
You need to know:
Who is speaking or writing.
To whom or about whom is he/she/it speaking or writing.
What subject is he/she/it speaking or writing about.
Why or what is the occasion he/she/it is speaking or writing.
When are they speaking or writing.
God was speaking to Abraham about listening to Sarah.
What was the reason God made this statement?
quote:
21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
So the reason God was speaking to Abraham was that Sarah had saw Ishmael mocking, and because of that Sarah told Abraham to cast out the bondwoman and her son.
Abraham was grieved because Ishmael was his son.
And because of that God told Abraham to listen to Sarah and cast out the bondwoman and his son.
So your conclusions are as phoney as a three dollar bill.
So the text you are using to make Sarah into some great spiritual visionary mind is taken competely out of context.
She was simply letting her jealously show and demanding that Abraham send Haggar and Ishmael away.
IamJoseph writes:
Tomatoes are a recent discovery as a consumable food. In ancient times only foods which did not corrupt had any value.
Then I guess you have never eaten any wild tomatos.
The aztecs in South America used them in their cooking in 500 BC.
IamJoseph writes:
The vine gives wine in a very short time
The vine don't give wine. The grapes are crushed getting the juice out of them and then the juice is fermented turning it into wine.
I can plant corn in the middle of March and harvest it in late October and make 180 proof white lightening out of it by Christmas.
So grain is a lot faster than grapes from planting to producing wine.
You are talking to a farm boy that was used to having a 5 gallon jug behind the seat of the old Model A in case the gas tank got empty. In other words we provided our own ethanol.
IamJoseph writes:
No sir. Getting off his back is a bad lesson. Its a test for all mankind how to behave. It causes holocausts and chants of VE VERE NOT AVARE. You are not understanding what you are reading.
I understand exactly what I am reading but I have no idea what you are even talking about must less understand what you are reading or who you are reading behind.
You ain't reading the Bible.
IamJoseph writes:
Why repeat the same. ALL in this writing refers to NOAH AND HIS HOUSEHOLD. I did not invent that verse - its in the text.
When I have a question I always ask it and usually ask until I get an answer but I am going to make an exception for you.
What is your definition of ALL?
What is your definition of ALL FLESH?
quote:
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
What does every living thing of all flesh mean in this verse?
This is the last time I will ask.
God Bless,
MOSTLY OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. Address only topic related comments.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by IamJoseph, posted 11-04-2011 9:27 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by IamJoseph, posted 11-05-2011 5:11 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 248 of 306 (640135)
11-07-2011 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by IamJoseph
11-04-2011 8:53 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
I had over looked this message and since you can't reply to my last message I will reply to this one.
IamJoseph writes:
A first verse is also a header
So when was the flood story divided into chapter's and verses?
In other words who decided Genesis 7:1 would be the first verse of Chapter 7?
IamJoseph writes:
One has to retain and infuse all factors of the text in making a conclusion.
So explain why does this verse not include the word household?
quote:
6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
This verse lists who is supposed to be in the ark.
It mentions nothing about Noah's tame animals.
This verse mentions who is in the household (family) of Noah.
quote:
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
This verse tells Noah what animals are to be on the ark.
ומכל־החי translation, and from all the life
מכל־בשר from all flesh
שנים two
מכל from all
תביא will come
אל־התבה־־להחית to the vessel to exist
אתד at you
זכר male
ונקבה and female
יהיו they exist
Reading:
And from all the life from all flesh two from all will come to the vessel to exist at you male and female they exist.
Please explain from that verse what creature on planet Earth would not come to the vessel to be able to exist?
That is the reason I asked you for your definition's of 'all', and 'every'.
I find no life form left out in either word.
Now you claim Genesis 7:1 is a header for what follows.
Where is the header for the description of who and what is to get on the ark in Genesis 6:18, 19?
Those verses preceed your assertion of 7:1.
Your famous word household in English means:
quote:
1.
a. A domestic unit consisting of the members of a family who live together along with nonrelatives such as servants.
b. The living spaces and possessions belonging to such a unit.
2. A person or group of people occupying a single dwelling:
Source
The Hebrew word ביתד translated as house means:
1) house
2) place
3) receptacle
4) home, house as containing a family
5) household, family
The KJV translates ביתד as house.
The LXX translates ביתד to the Greek word οικος which is translated family.
A family is what is covered in Genesis 6:18.
IamJoseph writes:
No, your grammar is faulty. Read: 'Two of ALL flesh - [of Noah's household]'
The problem is that Genesis 7:17 has no Hebrew word indicating household in it.
It does have the Hebrew words מכל־בשר meaning all flesh.
There is no mention of region or household in the verse.
IamJoseph writes:
ALL THE HIGH HILLS UNDER THE WHOLE (ENTIRE) HEAVEN - [in Noah's town]. Yes it says that!
Where does the text say: "in Noah's town"?
I would still like to know what your definition of 'all' is.
IamJoseph writes:
I was not alluding, nor making an issue of arc or boat; your descriptions only favor my position: the arc or boat, whatever, was designed only to float, stable and safe; apparently given with a clear knowledge of engineering equations of force and bouyancy.
The point I am trying to make is that the ark was not a boat.
It was a rectangular cube built for volume and to keep the occupants safe.
To construct the ark as a boat would reduce the load capacity by over one third thus reducing the number of humans and other living creaturers that has the breath of life in them.
But I don't see where that favors your position.
Your position is that it was small and could not hold two of all the critters on Earth therefore it had to be a local flood.
IamJoseph writes:
If the world was again covered wth water - as in ch. 1 - the mountains would not be seen.
Yes the mountains (high hills) would not be seen if they were covered with water.
IamJoseph writes:
But the mountain tops after the flood were seen!
But dry land was not seen until:
quote:
8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
So Noah saw the face of the ground was dry when he removed the covering of the ark.
It says Noah saw the face of the ground nothing is mentioned of him seeing the high hills or mountains.
Prior to this event Noah sent out a dove to see if the land was dry.
quote:
8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
But the Dove found no dry land as the face of the whole earth was covered with water.
What is your definition of whole?
IamJoseph writes:
Your error of the text reading!
I will agree that we are reading the text different.
That only means either one of us is wrong or both of us is wrong.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by IamJoseph, posted 11-04-2011 8:53 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by IamJoseph, posted 11-08-2011 1:17 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 250 by IamJoseph, posted 11-08-2011 11:37 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 251 of 306 (640428)
11-09-2011 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by IamJoseph
11-08-2011 11:37 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
The text order was always the same;
What is your evidence for that assertion?
I don't know who you believe wrote the Torah but I believe Moses wrote the Torah.
I believe that Moses wrote the Torah during the 40 years of wandering around in the wilderness from the information God gave him on the mount during the 40 days he spent with God.
The children of Israel has just spent 400 years making bricks for the Egyptians so they knew how to make tablets out of clay.
Moses would have had access to plenty of material to record the texts on.
The problem is the tablets would not have been very durable which would account for us not having any of the originals.
IamJoseph writes:
the Greeks merely gave them numbers for verses and sub-chapters, an intelliginet input,
Around 586 BC the 5 books of Moses was put into 154 sections for reading purposes.
Around 536 BC the 5 books was put into 54 sections and 669 sub-divisions for reading.
The NT was divided into paragraphs around 325 AD.
The Bible was divided into chapters and verses in the 13th century AD. And was further revised in the 16th century AD.
So verses and chapters have not been around very long.
The original texts was written without division of the words much less chapters and verses.
So it would have been no problem for a copyist to get things mixed up.
IamJoseph writes:
Very simple explanation. After nominating who will enter the arc [Noah and his entire household], the text now enumerates them as confirmation. Note how all refer only to Noah's household and possessions for sustainence and re-growth of a small family - not all life forms of the earth.
Yes, I know that is what you assert as it fits your worldview.
But that is not what the text says.
quote:
6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Who was to be in the ark?
Thou shalt come into the ark.
Thy sons shalt come into the ark.
Thy wife shalt come into the ark.
Thy son's wives shalt come into the ark.
I can't find where it says, thy domesticated animals shalt come into the ark.
I can't find where it says, Wild animals shalt come into the ark.
I do find where the text says:
quote:
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
There is no mention of domesticated or wild living thing of all flesh.
That text says EVERY living thing of ALL FLESH.
It does not say some living thing's of some flesh.
That is the reason I asked what your meaning of 'every' and 'all' was.
quote:
7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Genesis 7:7 agrees with Genesis 6:18. Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth and their wives were to go into the ark, and they did.
Genesis 7:8 agrees with Genesis 6:19. Of everything that moved upon the Earth was to be in the ark.
Genesis 7:9 says male and female of all listed in Genesis 7:8 went into the ark. Noah had nothing to do with the critters that came to the ark. God provided the critters.
IamJoseph writes:
Only domestic animals and household owned animals are listed. Not a single wild animal makes the list - no snakes or elephants. This is no typo.
I read no place in Genesis chapter 6 or 7 the word domestic animals.
In fact the word does not exist in the KJV Bible, or Hebrew text.
Snakes and elephants are unclean animals so there were male and female of each on the ark.
IamJoseph writes:
However your version translates "'Come thou and all thy house into the ark" - the defining factors are what actually went into the arc
Genesis 6:18 tells us what humans are to be in the ark.
Genesis 6:19 tells us what animals are to be in the ark.
Genesis 7:7 tells us what humans entered the ark.
Genesis 7:8 tells us what animals entered the ark, clean and unclean.
Genesis 7:9 tells us how many of each entered the ark.
So if the critters that actually went into the ark is the defining factors your interpertation of domestic animals is false.
But you are welcome to your opinion. It just happens to be wrong.
IamJoseph writes:
This is the only reading by precedence and resultant text. Namely, it refers to Noah's region, town, village, etc. Its a localized sector; a household cannt be read as whole earth.
You are right a household can not be read as whole earth.
But the whole earth can not be read as a household which is what you are doing.
The text says:
quote:
7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
That says that all the high hills were covered with water.
It does not say in the region Noah lived in. If it did it would have been a lot easier for Noah to take his family and his animals and move to a different location. He had 120 years before the flood so traveling 20 miles a day he and all of his could have traveled 876,000 miles in the 120 years or he could have traveled 7,300 miles in 1 year.
So why build an ark? As it was a waste of time if there was only a local flood, as you claim.
But if all the high hills under heaven was covered with water there was no dry land.
Since you disagree name the hill that would still be dry.
IamJoseph writes:
Whatever. It does not impact.
What do you mean it would not impact?
If the ark was built like a boat is built to travel through the water there would have been over 1,500,000 cubit feet less storage space on the ark. That would be over 10 acres of storage space with rooms 3 feet high for the animals.
So it would make a big impact.
IamJoseph writes:
My position is it was not a boat/ship/arc for all the life forms on the planet but for one large group of families, including their wives, children and each group's vital possessions.
I agree it was not for all life forms on the Earth. If that was the case why flood the Earth as nothing would perish if it all was on the ark.
There was not one large group of families. There was 8 people on the ark.
Where do you get children from the text? There is none mentioned.
Where is each group's vital posession mentioned?
You assume a lot of things that there is no evidence for.
IamJoseph writes:
Noah could only see the dry ground in his immediate region; he could not see the ground in Tasmania!
Where does the text say Tasmania existed at that time? The Earth had not been divided when the flood took place.
quote:
Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
All the water was in one place. But with Tasmania existing there is several land locked lakes meaning all the water is not in one place.
So it would actually depend on where Tasmania was at when the flood took place.
IamJoseph writes:
This is also true of a dove sent to check the region - it could not possible fly all over the planet and report back it could only fly a small distance in the region and report back;
No but the dove could have flown 500 miles in any direction and then returned without stoping to eat.
IamJoseph writes:
It is subject to its extenuating qualifications. Whole of the universe, or whole of a small cup of wine?
Well it is not talking about the universe.
It is not talking about a small cup of wine.
It is talking about the whole Earth under the heavens.
So what is your definition of whole without the Obfuscation?
If I say I am holding a whole apple in my hand, does that mean I am holding only a tablespoon full of an apple in my hand?
That is exactly how you are defining whole.
IamJoseph writes:
Yes, I was not having a go at you, many hold your position sincerely. However, only one reading is plausible and coherent.
You sure fooled me then.
But you are correct there is only one true interpertation of what the text says.
In Message 248 I gave you the Hebrew for Genesis 6:19.
I then asked you to, "Please explain from that verse what creature on planet Earth would not come to the vessel to be able to exist?"
The actual text of the Bible does matter. Not what you or I think it says.
You should have the idea by now that I am a literalist when it comes to what the Bible says.
But you are wrong as to how man readings are plausible and coherent as all the different Bible versions will testify too.
So what is your definition for:
Whole = __________________.
All = _____________________.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by IamJoseph, posted 11-08-2011 11:37 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by IamJoseph, posted 11-10-2011 12:37 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 253 of 306 (640528)
11-10-2011 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by IamJoseph
11-10-2011 12:37 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
Despite all the hooplah, the Hebrew bible has no evidences of changes, and it is most impossible that it could have been authored by more than one source on one particular time.
Are you saying the entire OT was written by one man?
Or, that one man wrote the Torah?
I agree Moses wrote the Torah.
But there has been many copies since Moses wrote the original writings.
IamJoseph writes:
While the word 'domestic' is new, it does actually say that word in paraphrase. Household, sometimes translated as possessions, means all your families and livestock - aka, domestic stuff.
quote:
6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
These verses specify who and what was to be in the ark.
quote:
7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
These verses specify exactly what entered the ark.
There is nothing in those verses that specify Noah's domestic animals.
Verse 8 does specify two of everything that creepeth upon the Earth.
What does that verse leave out?
What does the word כל translated every thing mean?
Hint: All
What is your definition of 'all'?
IamJoseph writes:
We've covered this. It does mean domestic, all life forms "as per your household" [the text]. Excluding virus, bacteria and snakes.
Where does the text limit or say "as per your household"?
Where does the text exclude viruses, bacteria and snakes?
quote:
7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
There are two classifications of critters. Clean and Unclean. There is no division into domestic or wild. There is no division of Included and Excluded.
There is 1 division "ALL".
IamJoseph writes:
It is limited by the qualifications in the text. 'ALL FLESH IN THY HOUSEHOLD'.
What verse says 'ALL FLESH IN THY HOUSEHOLD'?
quote:
6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
Fowls after their kind.
Cattle after their kind.
Every creeping thing of the Earth after his kind.
Two of every sort shall come unto thee to keep them alive.
What critter got left out of that verse?
The Hebrew word רמש translated creeping thing means creeping things, moving things, all things moving on all fours or upon their belly.
IamJoseph writes:
YET YOU INSIST THE COMMAND WAS SO UBSURD IT EXPECTED NOAH TO LOCATE EVERY LIVING THING ON THE PLANET: CAN ANYONE DO SO TODAY - WOULD SUCH A COMMAND EVER BE PLAUSIBLE?
Where have I insisted that Noah had to locate every living thing on planet Earth?
The text plainly says:
quote:
7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Verse 7 says Noah and his sons and his wife and their wives went into the ark.
Verse 8 describes the critters to be on the ark.
Verse 9 tells us how the critters got in the ark. They came to the ark after Noah and his family was in the ark and went in unto Noah.
Noah had nothing to do with who or what critters came to the ark.
Noah was responsible for building the ark.
Noah was responsible for Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, his wife and the wives of his sons, being on the ark.
Noah was also responsible for food being on the ark for his family and for the animals.
Noah was not responsible for anything else.
More confirmation:
quote:
6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
Two of every sort shall come unto thee.
Noah did not have to go look for them.
Your assertion is baseless.
Unless you believe God could not deliver the animals to the ark.
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
It does not say some living thing's of some flesh.
But it does!
Which verse states some living thing's of some flesh?
IamJoseph writes:
Negative. The verse relates only to unclean animals in Noah's possession.
You keep asserting that but you can't produce the verse that says animals in Noah's posession.
That is your interpertation of בית which means house or family.
You interpret it to mean Noah's family, domestic animals, and his region.
The Hebrew word חבל translates territory or region.
The Hebrew word כלי translates article, vessel, implement, utensil.
The Hebrew word חי is translated clean or unclean beast and means living, or alive.
Now if the writer had wanted to limit the area to Noah's territory or region he could have used חבל but he did not.
If he had wanted to refer to Noah's stuff he would have used כלי. But he did not.
IamJoseph writes:
This corresponds to the ark size, what is plausibe, and what Noah required to prevail a regional flood.
You never did tell me how many cubic feet of storage space would be required to house 2 of all the 10 to 15 thousand species alive today on Earth.
Just as soon as you get me that number which you assert could not fit on the ark I will tell you whether they will fit or not.
If it was just his goats, sheep, cattle dogs, cats, 7 pair of doves and a pair of ravens he spent too many years building the ark because he did not need an ark 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 30 cubits to house his family and those.
IamJoseph writes:
To conclude this from my end, everything makes sense when this report is seen as a regional flood.
So what makes sense to you superceeds what the text says.
I am sorry but that is why we have so many false beliefs and false religions in the world.
What you believe and judge makes sense does not superceed what the text says.
The text says:
quote:
Genesis 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
The Hebrew word ארץ translated dry land in Genesis 1:10 is translated earth in 7:19 above.
The high hills that were covered was on that dry land and were dry themselves until covered with water.
The Hebrew words כל־השמים translated whole heaven is the noun כל meaning all and the noun השמים meaning heavens.
Now you can try any way you desire to get that to mean the region in which Noah lived all you want but you can not get the text to support your assertion.
It plainly says all the dry land and the hills on it under the heavens was covered with water.
For any dry land or hill not to be covered with water it had to be above heavens.
That is the reason I have asked you numerous times what the word 'ALL' means.
It seems you have no idea what 'ALL' means.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by IamJoseph, posted 11-10-2011 12:37 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by IamJoseph, posted 11-10-2011 6:10 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 255 of 306 (640591)
11-10-2011 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by IamJoseph
11-10-2011 6:10 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
The point is that there is no evidence more than one person wrote the five books attributed to Moses,
I believe Moses wrote the book that was divided into the first 5 books of the Bible.
He had nothing to do with the chapters, verses, or book division.
There is not a single tablet available that Moses wrote in any museum as of this date.
He would have wrote on clay tablets which were made in the wilderness. The materials might not have been perfect and that is the reason none of them have been found.
But we do have what has been copied over years.
The Hebrew I use and we have in the Torah is not what Moses writings looked like. Moses would have written in Paleo-Hebrew which is what was used prior to 585 BC. I think I have an avatar with Paleo on it. I will change it to that one. I would love to use it but I can't find html codes for it.
How many times do you think the text was copied from Moses time until today?
If you were one of those copyist there would be no question about the text supporting a local flood. Do you think there was not others who had some wild ideas and copyed to suit their biases.
IamJoseph writes:
Instead of cherry picking, you should list all the texts which contradict your conclusion,
If you want to refute the texts you say I am quote mining please present the texts you believe does so. It is not my job to refute myself.
IamJoseph writes:
The great, older, more advanced nations did NOT create such books - how come?
But they did create such books. They just poluted the stories that had been handed down to them from their ancestors who was divided into the land after the tower of Babel. And was then divided into the different continents after the flood in Peleg's day.
Moses probably even had the privilege of reading some of them in Pharaohs house. Remember he lived in Pharaohs house for the first 40 years of his life and was educated in the best knowledge in Egypt as he was Pharaohs daughters son by adoption.
BTW there are some of those tablets available in museums today.
Where do you think the stories that is constantly trotted out here and claimed to be older stories which the Torah came from?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by IamJoseph, posted 11-10-2011 6:10 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by IamJoseph, posted 11-10-2011 10:17 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 257 of 306 (640737)
11-12-2011 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by IamJoseph
11-10-2011 10:17 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
No contest. It means each generation can read as they percieve in their generation, while also adhering to one of the commands NOT TO ADD OR SUBTRACT ANYTHING FROM THESE LAWS.
Where can I find that command recorded in the Bible?
IamJoseph writes:
As examples: You have not inserted the verse relating to Noah's household as applicable, then you either deny it or distort it;
I do not add to it as you do I accept it as written.
IamJoseph writes:
nor that the arc dimensions only support a local flood and Noah's possessions.
How do you know how big the ark was or how much it could hold? You don't even have the faintest idea what a cubit is in length.
You say a cubit is a foot.
When in fact the smallest cubit is 17.5 inches, but the Holy Cubit is 25.3 inches.
I have asked you several times for the volume required to put 2 of every critter alive today in and you have not attempted to answer.
You give me the volume required and I will tell you whether it will fit on the ark. I have drawn and built buildings so tell me the cubic feet needed and I will draw it and tell you if they will fit.
The humans could survive in less than 10,000 cubit feet. In fact I know of 12 adults surviving in less than 2,000 cubic feet.
So give me the kinds and number of animals you believe was on the ark and I will see what size ark was need to keep them safe.
IamJoseph writes:
Nor did you factor in that no wild animals are mentioned,
The only wild animal or beast mentioned in Genesis is a wild man.
quote:
Genesis 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
So why are you on about wild animals?
There was two kinds of animals mentioned. Clean and unclean.
Any other division comes from your imagination.
IamJoseph writes:
or that when the arc ceased floating it could not have released all the earth's life forms,
Why couldn't all the life forms on Earth be released from the ark?
IamJoseph writes:
or that avine plant would suffice for all such animals.
Could you explain what kind of a plant you are talking about and where I can find it in the Bible?
IamJoseph writes:
Nor could the arc have landed nearby from where it started.
Why couldn't the ark have landed anywhere God wanted it to land?
IamJoseph writes:
You, like many others, decided this writings is unspecific, fable, uninteligent and capable of incoherence and blatantly implausible descriptions. I say:
I do not believe the flood story is a fable.
I believe it is a fact and took place as recorded in the text.
I even believe that Noah and his family was to be on the ark as stated in Genesis 7:1.
You are the one adding to the text to make it fit your worldview.
You want to argue what the text says?
If so lets get it on.
quote:
Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
The Hebrew word ארץ is the same word translated Earth in all the above texts.
ארץ does not mean one thing in 1:10 and another thing in any of the other verses.
It means the same thing in all verses.
Dry land. Which became wet land in 7:19, and uninhabited wet land in 7:23.
According to the text there was no dry land when the water was on the face of the Earth.
Present your refutation of these verses and conclusion and only then will we move on to other verses.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by IamJoseph, posted 11-10-2011 10:17 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by IamJoseph, posted 11-12-2011 6:57 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 260 by IamJoseph, posted 11-12-2011 7:24 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 261 of 306 (640774)
11-13-2011 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by IamJoseph
11-12-2011 7:24 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
These measurements are not subject to confusion, as you have done in a number of posts thus far. The measurements of the house which contained the Arc, for example, are verifiable in the historical, specifc writings of Josephus and the temple scroll found in the dead sea scroll package. Example measurements of walls, pillars and porches of the Jerusalem temple given in cubits [roughly a foot; elbow to fingers]:
I am only 5' 8" tall and from my elbow to the tip of my fingers is a lot further than a foot
Where do you get the statement "roughly a foot"?
Where in Josephus does it state a cubit is roughly a foot?
Where does it state in the Dead Sea Scrolls a cubit is roughly a foot?
IamJoseph writes:
You tell us!? I gave you an account of those that went in.
No you told me his domestic animals.
You did not tell me what animals and how many of each.
He could have had a 1,000 head of cattle and 3,000 head of sheep.
If they were a part of his household they would have all had to be on the ark or either some of his household was not on the ark.
Give me a list of animals and how many of each you believe was on the ark and I will tell you how big the ark had to be.
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
The humans could survive in less than 10,000 cubit feet. In fact I know of 12 adults surviving in less than 2,000 cubic feet.
And all the life forms of the earth as well, right!? No, the whole of humans could not fit in that space and such a view is quite bizarre. Even a can of sardines does not allow such a view.
No there was only two of every unclean critters on the ark supplied by God.
There was also two of every clean critter on the ark supplied by God.
There was also 7 of each clean animal supplied by Noah.
But there was not 2,000 cubic feet or 10,000 cubic feet in the ark. There was over 4 million cubic feet in the ark.
Enough space to have 30 acres of storage space when divided up into rooms.
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
This statement was made by IamJoseph writes:
Nor could the arc have landed nearby from where it started.
Why couldn't the ark have landed anywhere God wanted it to land?
That does not make sense. You are refuting given reasoning and statements with a generic premise of what God can do. How about God does not change his mind?
I corrected the quote you atributed to me above.
You said the ark could not have landed nearby to where it started. You gave no reason or argumentation to support such an assertion.
I simply ask you why not and gave you an argument that God could have caused it to land anywhere He so desired.
No God does not change His mind. If you want to argue that point start a thread for that argumentation.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by IamJoseph, posted 11-12-2011 7:24 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 262 of 306 (640775)
11-13-2011 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by IamJoseph
11-12-2011 6:57 PM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
I have no idea what you are quoting.
quote:
Deut. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
That is the entire sentence and it says nothing about adding to or taking away from the law.
The only place I know of a scripture that comes close in in:
quote:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
This has nothing to do with the Torah. In fact it only has to do with the book of Revelation.
Now you keep telling me that the copyist could not add to or take away from the text concerning the flood or anything else in the Torah.
Yet you change the size of the ark making it half the size it was and you leave a lot of critters off the ark.
You also state that all the dry earth was not covered with water when the text declares that all the high hills under the whole heavens was covered with water.
You state only domestic animals of Noah's household was on the ark, when the text declares 2 of all flesh that had the breath of life went into the ark to Noah.
So don't tell me no body can add to the text or take any thing away from the text because you sure can.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by IamJoseph, posted 11-12-2011 6:57 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 5:51 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 264 of 306 (640825)
11-13-2011 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by IamJoseph
11-13-2011 5:51 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea what you are quoting.
It says not to add to the Hebrew laws. It is one of the 613 commandments in the Hebrew bible, and you asked for proof.
Can you read English?
In Message 262 I quoted Deut. 13:1-3, I will do verse 1 here again.
quote:
Deut. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
That verse says absolutely nothing about adding to or taking away from the Hebrew laws.
IamJoseph writes:
The size of the arc aligns only with one large family and their domestic life forms. I changed nothing.
You keep making that assertion. But when I ask you what animals Noah had on the ark you refuse to give me a list of what kind and how many there are.
You just resort to your assertion which you believe makes it true.
Lets examine what domestic life forms Noah would have.
7 oxen allowed
7 cows allowed.
7 bison allowed.
7 wild deer allowed. But you say no wild animals. Not allowed.
7 sheep allowed.
7 goats allowed.
7 Gazelle allowed.
7 Giraffe allowed.
7 chickens allowed.
7 doves allowed.
If the following was not wild they would be allowed.
7 ducks allowed.
7 geese allowed.
7 turkeys allowed.
2 Rahvins not allowed according to you as they would have been wild.
2 horses allowed.
2 asses allowed.
2 tame cats allowed.
2 tame dogs allowed.
That is all that I can come up with so go over the list and if I left out anything please present them.
IamJoseph writes:
You are quoting selective half sentences which cntradict other pivotal verses.
Then give me the verses they contradict.
IamJoseph writes:
"Of Noah's household".
Give me the verse that says 2 of all flesh that had the breath of life went into the ark to Noah, of Noah's household.
IamJoseph writes:
Why do you think Judaism and Christianity are different religions!?
Judaism was composed of the descendants of Isaac the son of Abraham and Sarah.
The ten commandments was given to those descendents as well as all the other laws found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
That means the flood happened over 857 years prior to the law being given.
So why are we discussing clean and unclean animals.
Why are you putting Noah under the Law given by Moses?
The Law given to Moses by God and to the children of Israel did not exist when the flood took place.
Abraham was not under the Law given to Moses. That is why it is said of him that he believed God and it was counted unto him righteousness.
Juadism was a system of government of laws given to the descendents of Isaac. The people had to meet certain requirements to satisfy God which was done by obeying Him in works and deeds.
Jesus came and nailed the Law to the tree, taking it out of the way.
quote:
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Jesus replaced all the Law given to Moses with two laws.
quote:
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Christanity is living by faith, as did Abraham.
But if you desire to discuss this sideline please start a thread and not clutter this one up any further. We only have 36 posts left.
You have left behind a lot of unanswred questions.
What is your definition of 'ALL' when placed in front of flesh?
What is your definition of 'WHOLE' when placed in front of heavens?
What is your definition of 'EVERY' when placed in front of creeping thing?
What is your definition of 'ALL' and 'WHOLE' in the following text?
quote:
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
What is your definition of בית transliterated bayith?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 5:51 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 7:55 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 276 of 306 (641017)
11-15-2011 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by IamJoseph
11-13-2011 7:55 PM


Re: LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
What ails thee o knight of arms, alone and palely loitering?
Nothing ails me.
You just can't understand English so I don't know if you can read it or not.
You said this in Message 259 was what Deut. 13:1 said:
quote:
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
Deuteronomy 13:1 says:
quote:
13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
In light of your quote and what the text actually says I can begin to understand your problem with what the text in Genesis chapter 6 and 7 is saying.
You don't have a clue as to what the text says.
That is the reason you tell me that וכל־ביתד means domestic animals.
You also define "EVERY" as some.
You also define "ALL" as some.
You also define "WHOLE HEAVENS" as part of the heavens.
You also define "ALL THE HIGH HILLS" as some of the high hills was covered with water.
I am beginning to get the picture that if the text does not say what you want it to say that you just change it to suit your worldview.
Now if you disagree give me your definitions of:
"EVERY"
"ALL"
"WHOLE HEAVENS"
"ALL THE HIGH HILLS"
Since the text concerning the life forms on Earth to be destroyed says:
quote:
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
That verse says man, beast, the creeping thing and fowls of the air. It leaves no one or no air breathing creature who would not be destroyed.
quote:
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
Verse 17 says God will bring a flood to destroy "ALL FLESH" that breathed the breath of life.
Verse 18 begins the exceptions to being destroyed listing first Noah and his sons and their wives.
Verse 19 includes two of every living thing of all flesh, male and female was to be kept alive in the ark.
Verse 20 includes two of every kind fowl, of every kind of cattle, and of every kind of creeping thing that would come to the ark, to be kept alive.
Now show me I am wrong about what you can understand and what you can't understand by detailing how your assertions of a local flood took place and Noah only had his domestic animals on the ark in light of what these verses say.
Noah was told to build an ark to save himself and family from the flood as well as two of every living creature on planet Earth, as God was going to destroy all flesh, air breathing creatures.
He was told how to build it.
quote:
6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
So Noah was to build an ark 300 x 50 x 30 cubits.
The shortest cubit is given as 17.5 inches and the longest cubit as 25.6 inches with Noah's cubit given as 20.3 inches.
I can't find where or why Noah's cubi is given as 20.3 instead of the Holy cubit which is 25.3 inches.
You can find a cubit caculator Here that you can select any size cubit you want too, but you can't find one smaller than 17.5.
Im Message 260 you said:
IamJoseph writes:
These measurements are not subject to confusion, as you have done in a number of posts thus far. The measurements of the house which contained the Arc, for example, are verifiable in the historical, specifc writings of Josephus and the temple scroll found in the dead sea scroll package. Example measurements of walls, pillars and porches of the Jerusalem temple given in cubits [roughly a foot; elbow to fingers]:
I ask before and I ask again, where do you get your definition of a cubit from?
In Message 264 I presented a partial list of creatures, although it was all I could come up with that was domestic animals you claim was in the ark. I asked you to expand the list if I had left out any.
So I ask again, what is incomplete with this list?
quote:
Lets examine what domestic life forms Noah would have.
7 oxen allowed
7 cows allowed.
7 bison allowed.
7 wild deer allowed. But you say no wild animals. Not allowed.
7 sheep allowed.
7 goats allowed.
7 Gazelle allowed.
7 Giraffe allowed.
7 chickens allowed.
7 doves allowed.
If the following was not wild they would be allowed.
7 ducks allowed.
7 geese allowed.
7 turkeys allowed.
2 Rahvins not allowed according to you as they would have been wild.
2 horses allowed.
2 asses allowed.
2 tame cats allowed.
2 tame dogs allowed.
That is all that I can come up with so go over the list and if I left out anything please present
Please present any creature I left out.
I will then tell you what size ark was need to house the critters for your flood journey of Noah's so called household.
Now if you care to debate the issues please present your argumentation and any supporting evidence you can come up with that supports your position.
Any blather that is not related to the subject at hand will not be answered.
If you care to continue in your blather start a thread in the free for all and carry on.
But in this thread please stick to the subject of Noah's flood as we are getting to the end and I have not learned anything from your blather so far.
If you have any argumentation and evidence present it now or conceed you have no idea what you have been talking about.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : correct link

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by IamJoseph, posted 11-13-2011 7:55 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by IamJoseph, posted 11-15-2011 6:59 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 278 of 306 (641049)
11-15-2011 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by IamJoseph
11-15-2011 6:59 PM


Re: LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
Hi Joseph,
IamJoseph writes:
You are covering the same ground obsessively, without factoring any responsa. I gave you 100% proof the Hebrew bible laws forbids adding and subtracting from those laws,
I keep covering the same ground because you have not answered the questions, nor have you presented 100% proof of anything.
You quoted a verse of scripture that does not exist in the Bible.
When presented a direct quote of the verse you ignore it and repeat you have presented 100% evidence that the verse says what you say.
This turkey is done. If you want to discuss it start a thread.
IamJoseph writes:
Further, I also stated the clean and unclean animals are limited to Noah's household [the text],
But the law of Moses did not exist for 857 years after the flood.
The Law was given to the descendants of Isaac the son of Abraham and Sarah.
So why are we actually discussing clean and unclean animals?
If you check the verses in chapter 6 & 7 of Genesis you will find the only use of clean and not clean prior to the Law being given to Moses, who delivered it to the people.
quote:
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
There is no mention of clean or not clean critters in these verses in the chapter where instructions were given for the construction of the ark and the critters who were to be the passengers including the descriptions of the humans.
quote:
7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Those are the only verses that say anything about clean critters and unclean or not clean critters in the Bible until you get to the book of Leviticus.
quote:
Leviticus 11:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
11:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
11:3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is cloven-footed, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
11:8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
11:9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcasses in abomination.
11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
11:15 Every raven after his kind;
11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckoo, and the hawk after his kind,
11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
11:24 And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcass of them shall be unclean until the even.
11:25 And whosoever beareth ought of the carcass of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
11:26 The carcasses of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not cloven-footed, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
11:27 And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcass shall be unclean until the even.
11:28 And he that beareth the carcass of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you.
11:29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
11:30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
11:31 These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.
11:32 And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.
11:33 And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth, whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.
11:34 Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.
11:35 And every thing whereupon any part of their carcass falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean and shall be unclean unto you.
11:36 Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcass shall be unclean.
11:37 And if any part of their carcass fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.
11:38 But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcass fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.
11:39 And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcass thereof shall be unclean until the even.
11:40 And he that eateth of the carcass of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcass of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.
11:42 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
11:44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
11:45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
11:46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.
Verse 46 makes a statement concerning when the Law of the beasts, fowl and every living creature that moveth in the waters, and every creature that creepeth upon the earth became effective.
In other words this is when the law of clean and unclean beasts was instituted not before.
The flood took place around 2304 BC.
The exodus took place around 1447 BC.
That is 857 years after the flood took place.
Why would Moses mention clean and not clean animals in Genesis chapter 7 & 8 when he knew there was no Law concerning the animals that were to be on the ark?
It is ludicrous to think Moses wrote the texts that defines clean and not clean when it did not exist.
The only way those things were mentioned was by some misguided copyist that knew they had to be clean or unclean animals being talked about.
I just wonder how much more was added to the text in chapter 7, to make it a Israelite story instead of a Gentile story which it was as the nation of Israel did not exist at the time of Noah.
Yea I know you don't believe something like that could happen.
But they were just as zealous as you are and just as misguided.
According to the text in Genesis chapter 6 there was male and female of every critter that had the breath of life in them, on the ark.
Along with 8 humans, 4 male and 4 female.
I see you still can't understand English or answer questions.
You don't have a clue as to what the text says.
That is the reason you tell me that וכל־ביתד means domestic animals.
You also define "EVERY" as some.
You also define "ALL" as some.
You also define "WHOLE HEAVENS" as part of the heavens.
You also define "ALL THE HIGH HILLS" as some of the high hills was covered with water.
I am beginning to get the picture that if the text does not say what you want it to say that you just change it to suit your worldview.
Now if you disagree give me your definitions of:
"EVERY"
"ALL"
"WHOLE HEAVENS"
"ALL THE HIGH HILLS"
If you don't give me your definitions I am going to assume that I got them right.
Since you did not take the time to address the following am I to assume that you agree with the following list?
7 oxen allowed
7 cows allowed.
7 bison allowed.
7 wild deer allowed. But you say no wild animals. Not allowed.
7 sheep allowed.
7 goats allowed.
7 Gazelle allowed.
7 Giraffe allowed.
7 chickens allowed.
7 doves allowed.
If the following was not wild they would be allowed.
7 ducks allowed.
7 geese allowed.
7 turkeys allowed.
2 Rahvins not allowed according to you as they would have been wild.
2 horses allowed.
2 asses allowed.
2 tame cats allowed.
2 tame dogs allowed.
If you disagree with the above list please add any animals you think would have been in Noah's household.
I would really like to know how big your ark would have to be to be able to house Noah, his sons, and all their wives plus the critters.
I can't do that without a complete list.
Can you address the topic?
OR
Have you decided to abandon the topic all together?
You have about half of 21 posts left to support all your assertions you have made in this thread about the flood story.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by IamJoseph, posted 11-15-2011 6:59 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by IamJoseph, posted 11-16-2011 12:42 AM ICANT has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024