Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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Other than that Mormonism seems mostly to be about community and family bonds, which I can respect.

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...except that the only family bonds which are important to Mormons are those of other Mormons.If you are a family member, even a birth parent, of someone who has converted to LDS, and that convert is getting married in a temple ceremony, The parents, as non-Mormons, are not permitted to attend.Additionally, no woman is ever permitted to have authority over any man in the Church higherarchy. As others have stated, there is an inordinate amount of concern and obsession about masturbation. No men of color were permitted to hold the Mormon preisthood until the 1970's, and the Mormon church of old was very racist in general.I has a very close friend convert when I was in college, and this prompted me to do some research. It seems they, as other cults do, target for conversion people in college or others who are in high-stress, transitional, often lonely periods in their lives.The (up till recently) secret temple ceremonies were filled with quite disturbing racist and anti-Catholic rhetoric until they were changed a few decades ago. (Ezra Taft Benson, a past Mormon President from the 1960's was a very vocal racist:http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon189.htm )Read about the temple ceremony, both the current and old versions here:~~Religion: Mormon ~~ Pay Lay Ale ~~ Secret ~ Temple ~ Ceremony~~

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The bottom line is that if you want to know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or any religion, for that matter), the best way is to get it straight from the horse?s mouth. There are plenty of places?both on the web and otherwise?where you can find out why someone believes something is false; this seems particularly true of The Church of Jesus Christ. However, I personally think it makes more sense to ask someone that actually knows what they?re talking about to explain it. Most often, this is someone who is affiliated with the organization in question.

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Actually, asking someone affiliated with a particular church about their church is only going to give you one side of a many-sided picture.For instance, since you are ovbiously a devotee of your own religion, it is basically impossible for you to be an objective observer. I mean, your post was a nice apologetic, but it certainly spins history to be more favorable towards the mormons.Mormons, in particular, are very, very eager to convert new members, so they are not likely to tell you anything negative or wierd or critical of their own organisation.The LDS church has a formidable public relations and advertising image as wholesome, family-oriented, and really, really nice.That is not the whole history nor reality of the Mormons.Racism, homophobia and misogyny are a big part of Mormon history and current beliefs, for example.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-02-2003][This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-02-2003]

[/quote]They could be baptized, confirmed, and enjoy full fellowship in the Church and full salvation in the kingdom of God, but they were not to hold the Priesthood until God directed otherwise (which happened in 1978).[/quote]Don't you think it's a bit naieve to look at these kinds of big changes to LDS doctrine as Godly "directions" when they "just happen" to coincide with strong political or social pressure which would make the church look bad (racist) or break the law (plural marriage)?

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I agree, by the way, that several prominent members of the Church have been very racist; people are imperfect. However, the views of a few?even a very prominent few?should not be construed to be those of the whole.

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...except they can be viewed as a whole if the racist is the leader of the entire organization, wouldn't you say? There's lots of racist instructional materials for Mormons from just a few decades ago. Read it here:Mormon racism in perspective – About The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)You can't just shrug it off as a "few prominent people were racist."As for misogyny, let me ask you a question.How many female church officials are there that have general authority similar to, and over, males?

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If you want to know the truth, don?t ask your preacher, don?t ask your minister, don?t ask your LDS friends, don?t even ask me. Ask God. He?ll tell you, the same way he told me.

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I did ask God. Nothing happened.

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And please don?t even try to tell me that I don?t know something just because you don?t know it. That?s about as valid as me claiming the sun doesn?t exist because I can?t see it at the moment.

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Actually, that's not a valid comparison.The sun is observable by anyone. I believe that the sun exists through thousands of repeated experiences of seeing it, feeling it's warmth, etc.By comparison, each and every person's experience and perception of religion or the supernatural is utterly and completely inside their own head.I do accept that you believe that certain things are true but you believe them in spite of evidence. Belief without evidence is called "faith", and you are entitled to it.Just don't expect anyone who requires evidence to buy it.

You know what's creepy, Otter?That LDS people, when challenged, often say the same thing like they have been coached ahead of time.I have spoken to several mormon people about racism and homophobia, and they have all used the, "surely some people in the Church will hold these views; it would be expected in any large organisation." line.I have spoken to several mormon women about the fact that no women can attain preisthood or any authority in the Church, and they all say exactly the same thing, which is, "I wouldn't want to be a priest!"It's just scary that you are all taught what to say, and that you all learn it so well and don't seem to even think anything you aren't supposed to think, and that you all say very nearly the exact same words![This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-03-2003]

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I fully recognize that there are two sides to every story,

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Actually, I would say that there are many more than two, usually.That's sort of my point.

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and I see nothing wrong with ?spinning history? in my own favor if everyone else on this board seems bent on spinning it against me.

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We aren't against you. We are against spin in gerneral. What we are after is accuracy.That's why it is important to get your information from as many sources as possible and not just rely on the believers to tell you things. Nobody but the Mormons thinks that J. Smith really found anything in NY, because there is no evidence that he did. Sorry, but that's just the truth. There isn't any confirming credible evidence.Take note of what you just said; "and I see nothing wrong with ?spinning history? in my own favor."Why? Why do you EVER think it's OK to spin history?

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However, I think it?s very dangerous to assume that anyone can be a completely objective observer.

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I agree completely.That's why it's very important to not just believe what you are told just because you like how it sounds. It is vitally important to look for as much disconfirming evidence as you can find.

I don't have time tonight, unfortunately, to get into your good, well-written post, but I will say a couple of things.Are you telling me that women can rise as high in the LDS church governance as any man?I have never, ever heard of LDS women being able to attain priesthood in the Mormon Church (except briefly about 100 years ago), and everything I have ever read confirms this. Can you link to information which supports what you claim?According to the several LDS women I have spoken with, their expected role is to have babies, raise them and run their households. They basically imply that to be a good Mormon woman they are not supposed to want the priesthood or to be involved with the governance of the Church beyond passing on what the always all-male bishops and prophets declare as doctrine in an educational role.Also, WRT to my "asking God", in the passage you linked to is states that one myst do so with "faith in Jesus". Well, if I already have "faith in Jesus", then by definition I already believe, so asking God anything seems redundant.I was without belief. I spoke to God. Nothing happened, even though you promised it would.If you have to start out believing in God before speaking to God to get God to answer, then that's not really the same as what I am asking for. You have now put out the rather unreasonable demand that I believe in God first, before I will get an answer.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-04-2003][This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-04-2003]

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How can you even tell the difference between genuine revelation and lying to yourself?

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?that?s not something I can answer for you. I?ve learned the difference over the past dozen years, but it?s a very personal thing. It?s kind of like trying to explain what salt tastes like (a comparison I cannot take credit for, but still a valid one): let?s imagine I?d never tasted salt. You can try to tell me what salt tastes like until you?re blue in the face, but until I?ve actually tasted it myself, I?ll never really know.

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If there's no way to externally test to determine that you are lying to yourself, then you actually can't say that you "know."You "believe" but that's not at all the same as "knowing".For instance, there are many people who are just as passionate, sure, and dedicated to their belief as you are who are utterly convinced that they and/or their children and loved ones have been abducted by space aliens.They have just as much evidence as you do for your belief.Should we therefore believe them as well?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-04-2003]

The Book of Mormon and DNA studies

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Not every statement in a holy book can be verified or disproved scientifically. For example, there is no archeological evidence that would prove the existence of most personalities described in the Bible prior to the time of King Solomon. Similarly, most of the events cannot be corroborated with hard evidence outside the Bible. However, one teaching of the Book of Mormon is different. It teaches that three groups of ancient Hebrews came from Israel to the Americas -- the first in 2247 BCE. Their descendants separated into two nations, the Nephites and the Lamanites. Subsequently, all but the Lamanites died off. The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of modern-day Native Americans. DNA, facial structure, and blood type studies seem to conflict with this belief. They demonstrate that the today's Natives descended from ancient people in Siberia. If the Natives were descendents of Lamanites, then one would expect to find Middle Eastern genetic markers in the DNA, facial structures and blood factors of American Natives.

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DNA Studies:

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A number of investigators have used genetic and blood testing studies to show that Native Americans are related closely to the inhabitants of Siberia . However, Thomas W. Murphy, 35, chairperson of the anthropology department at Edmonds Community College in Lynnwood, WA went further. He was raised as a Mormon in southern Idaho, and has said that he is "not an active member of the local congregation, but I'm very active in the Mormon intellectual community." 2 He decided to examine whether DNA analysis would confirm that many, perhaps most, Native Americans are descended from ancient Israelites. According to the LA Times, "He analyzed data collected by a multimillion-dollar 'molecular genealogy' project at Brigham Young [University] as well as other, similar projects that track ancestry from people worldwide via DNA in blood samples." Murphy concluded that over the last few thousand years, modern-day Jews and modern-day Native Americans do not share common ancestors. If they did, then genetic markers would be found in Natives identical to those in the descendents of ancient Hebrews. He concluded that: "the Book of Mormon is a piece of 19th century fiction. And that means that we have to acknowledge sometimes Joseph Smith lied." However, he believes that "the book might be fiction, but inspired as well."

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Schraff, if you believe and know God has heard you it does work (do you think I'm lying).

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It's not about lying. It's about things like self-deception, wishful thinking, selective memory, communal reinforcement, and other common, widespread, perfectly natural human thought biases.My point is that it always seems to be considered the fault of the person who doesn't hear God if they don't hear Him, even though they have asked sincerely.

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Why should there be any special cases, if there ARE believers?

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What do you mean by "special cases?"

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If I see a prophecy in the Bible I look at history and current events for fulfillment. The Spirit has already done his work when the prophecy was given. All I need do is look for the fulfillment. That's religiously scientific factual stuff. The Holy Spirit doesn't need to help me read my history book and newspaper. I can do that and decide whether to accept or reject those recorded and observed facts. Isn't this how true science is suppose to work?

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What do you mean, you "look for fulfillment"?Don't you mean you, "test the prediction", which would include examining all the evidence? This would mean that you would look not just for evidence which seems to confirm the prediction, but also that which seems to not support the prediction, and also any inconclusive evidence that does neither.That's what you would do in science.If you just go looking for evidence to confirm your prediction and do not look for or simply ignore or discount the other two kinds, then you are not doing science.

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I don't see why one who badmouths the true god Jehovah should expect to get anything from him without repentance to begin with.

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I don't badmouth God, buzsaw.It it true that I have little patience for foolishness and intellectual dishonesty, but it has nothing to do with God.If God exists, I doubt that She will be so insecure and egomaniacal as to need me to apologize to Her for anything.Besides, She has always known what I would do and how I would act, anyway. I am exactly the way She made me, and She likes me this way.

"God Answers Prayers of Paralyzed Little Boy--'No' says God"That has got to be one of my all-time favorite Onion bits.So appropriate for this thread! Thanks, Dan.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-04-2003]

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Well, if God said if you believe you will recieve, and God observes believers. What excuse does the unbeliever have, when God says you must believe?

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No, that's not really what was promised.I was told that IF I asked God, THEN I would believe and I would know God heard me.Mike, I was a believer for longer than you've been alive.I've done all the stuff, both as a believer and as a non-believer, that you and otter and all the other Christians and religious people say I need to do to have that meaningful experience.Nothing ever happened.

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Your not out the game yet, I'm still praying for you

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That's nice of you. I think nice thought about you, too.

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Hang on a minute, how old do you think I am?

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Late teens, maybe early twenties.

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Why does she have to be so intelligent Correct - 22.

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It's less to do with intelligence and more to do with experience and being abloe to pick up on clues you give.Like your avatar. Dead giveaway that you are a young male.