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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 331 of 466 (641078)
11-16-2011 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by jar
11-16-2011 8:56 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
quote:
Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian.
Does that mean he followed the Hebrew laws and also promoted the Gospel version of divine son? It seems very unlikely because these are such core differences.
quote:
iaj writes:
However, how do you, as a Christian, contradict a pivotal doctrine of Christianity - it cannot be a mere wrong interpretation as the doctrine is very precisely listed?
Sorry, but it is not that precisely listed.
Maybe not technically, but all Christians have a common belief of Jesus, and your position is irregular.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by jar, posted 11-16-2011 8:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by jar, posted 11-16-2011 9:14 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 332 of 466 (641080)
11-16-2011 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by IamJoseph
11-16-2011 9:03 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
But I believe in Jesus so no irregularity there.
And Jesus worked to reform the Jewish Laws and finally put some sense into them. Jesus added the touch of reasonablness that had been missing from Jewish law, the understanding that there are times the right act is to "fuggitaboutit".
Edited by jar, : forgot to address the Jewish law issue.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by IamJoseph, posted 11-16-2011 9:03 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Phat, posted 11-17-2011 9:14 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 333 of 466 (641152)
11-17-2011 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by jar
11-16-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
jar writes:
Jesus added the touch of reasonablness that had been missing from Jewish law, the understanding that there are times the right act is to "fuggitaboutit".
And so when I often find that I miss the mark at doing my very best, I know that Jesus understands my humanity and I ask for forgiveness for my selfishness and fear to hand over my first(never-mind
second) cloak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by jar, posted 11-16-2011 9:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 9:18 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 334 of 466 (641153)
11-17-2011 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by Phat
11-17-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
Of course, you post has absolutely nothing to do with the quote from me that you included.
In fact, what you mention is exactly the behavior Jesus condemned and judged as unacceptable.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Phat, posted 11-17-2011 9:14 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 11-17-2011 10:03 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 335 of 466 (641160)
11-17-2011 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by jar
11-17-2011 9:18 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
It is my belief that Jesus addressed Jews different from how Gentiles would be addressed. One group was expected to try and do the very best works they could...the other was expected to trust God and not get hung up on ritualistic effort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 9:18 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 10:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 336 of 466 (641162)
11-17-2011 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Phat
11-17-2011 10:03 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
But what does the manual say?
Matthew 25 writes:
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Where in that passage does he address Jews differently than Gentiles?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 11-17-2011 10:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2011 10:20 AM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 337 of 466 (641163)
11-17-2011 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by jar
11-17-2011 10:11 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
Hi jar,
jar writes:
Where in that passage does he address Jews differently than Gentiles?
Better yet where does the text you quoted address individual Jews or individual Gentiles?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 10:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 10:48 AM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 338 of 466 (641166)
11-17-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by ICANT
11-17-2011 10:20 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
It addresses "all the world" so both Jews and Gentiles are gathered.
And from the text, it seems pretty clear that the Goats are all followers of Jesus, what we would call Christians today.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2011 10:20 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 2:02 PM jar has replied
 Message 341 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2011 3:14 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 339 of 466 (641173)
11-17-2011 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by jar
11-17-2011 10:48 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
jar writes:
And from the text, it seems pretty clear that the Goats are all followers of Jesus, what we would call Christians today.
How do you get that out of it? It seems pretty clear to me that the goats were the ones who were self focused and without compassion regardless of doctrine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 10:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 2:54 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 340 of 466 (641175)
11-17-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by GDR
11-17-2011 2:02 PM


The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Let's look at the replies from the two groups.
First the sheep:
quote:
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Note that they acknowledge that they never did any of the things for Jesus.
Now look at what the Goats replied:
quote:
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Note the big difference. The Goats say "When did we ever not do for you?"
The former reaction is typical of folk that were not his followers, did not do anything for him; the latter reaction is typical of his followers who know that they did do for him.
The Sheep are astonished because he says that they did for him when they know that they did not, that they never did anything for Jesus even though he claims they did:
quote:
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
while the latter are astonished because they knew that they did do for him even though he says they did not:
quote:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
I imagine that all of the Goats will be Christians.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 2:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2011 3:25 PM jar has replied
 Message 344 by rueh, posted 11-17-2011 3:28 PM jar has replied
 Message 349 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 8:01 PM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 341 of 466 (641176)
11-17-2011 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by jar
11-17-2011 10:48 AM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
Hi jar,
jar writes:
It addresses "all the world"
The text does not say everybody of the world will stand before Him.
The text does not say all the world will stand before Him.
The text says all nations will stand before HIm.
Therefore the nations will be divided by Him.
The sheep nations on His right and the goat nations on His left.
The goat nations will be banished to the lake of fire.
The sheep nations will be invited into the earthly kingdom of Jesus that is going to last for 1000 years.
So no there are no judgment of individuals here only the judgments of the nations.
jar writes:
And from the text, it seems pretty clear that the Goats are all followers of Jesus,
Jesus's physical body was of the linage of David.
So when He says, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." He was talking about His physical Jewish brethren known as Israel.
That would mean those nations who have helped Israel will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign of Jesus in His kingdom here on Earth.
But then you don't believe the Bible so this will make no difference to you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 10:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 3:19 PM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 342 of 466 (641177)
11-17-2011 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by ICANT
11-17-2011 3:14 PM


Re: Jesus was a Jew
When Israel is mentioned in the Bible fables there are several different and unique meanings, and one must pay attention to the context to understand the meanings.
Israel as a Nation was often apostate and there is nothing to imply that the current Nation called Israel has anything to do with any mention of Israel in the Bible.
Israel, as a chosen people, is yet another meaning, one that Jesus explains is a totally false belief.
Your interpretation is simply crap and not supported by the actual words.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2011 3:14 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2011 8:47 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 343 of 466 (641178)
11-17-2011 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by jar
11-17-2011 2:54 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Hi jar,
jar writes:
"When did we ever not do for you?"
Who are you quoting?
The text does not say what you quote.
jar writes:
I imagine that all of the Goats will be Christians.
All of the goat nations will be the nations who have tried to destroy Israel.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 2:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 5:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 344 of 466 (641179)
11-17-2011 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by jar
11-17-2011 2:54 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Jar writes:
while the latter are astonished because they knew that they did do for him even though he says they did not:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I imagine that all of the Goats will be Christians.
It seems to me that he is casting them aside because of their lack of regard for their fellow man not because of their belief in Jesus. I don't think that you can just lump all Christians into this set just because they are Christian. I believe what the text is trying to portray is that your acts are held in higher regards than your professed beliefs.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
Opening your mind to imagination shouldn't close it to reality.
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 2:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2011 4:48 PM rueh has not replied
 Message 347 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 5:16 PM rueh has not replied
 Message 348 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 6:01 PM rueh has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 345 of 466 (641180)
11-17-2011 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by rueh
11-17-2011 3:28 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
I don't think that you can just lump all Christians into this set just because they are Christian.
All of the goats being christians does not imply all christians being goats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by rueh, posted 11-17-2011 3:28 PM rueh has not replied

  
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