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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 346 of 466 (641181)
11-17-2011 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by ICANT
11-17-2011 3:25 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Your post is just more Goat bleeting.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2011 3:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2011 9:40 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 347 of 466 (641182)
11-17-2011 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by rueh
11-17-2011 3:28 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
I am not say that all Christians will be Goats, but that far more Goats will be Christians than anything else. For example, a Christian that supports the current Nation of Israel and does not support the Palestinians is a Goat.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by rueh, posted 11-17-2011 3:28 PM rueh has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 348 of 466 (641183)
11-17-2011 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by rueh
11-17-2011 3:28 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Let me expand a little more along this line.
There are many Christians that view Christianity and Christians as Jesus chosen people just as there are many Jews (and were many Jews in Jesus day) that viewed the Hebrews as a Chosen People.
A popular marketing tactic when selling Christianity is that it is only those who profess Jesus, are washed in the Blood of the Lamb, are Born Again, have been Saved, been Called to the Altar, touched by the Hand of God, and a whole bunch of other bumper sticker trivialities, only those member of the "in Crowd" get to go to Heaven.
Jesus is pretty clear that all that is is bullshit, snake oil marketing, nonsense.
A good example can be found in Luke 4.
quote:
23And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
Here Jesus is speaking in a synagogue in his home town to Jewish Elders, yet he points out that Elias ad Eliseus were NOT sent to the Jews, but to nations other than Israel.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by rueh, posted 11-17-2011 3:28 PM rueh has not replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 349 of 466 (641187)
11-17-2011 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by jar
11-17-2011 2:54 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
I think I see what you are getting at although I just can’t see it being understood that way. I’ll use the American Standard translation as it is my understanding that it is the most literal translation and it is easier to understand than the one you are using.
quote:
31But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:32and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;33and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;36naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?38And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me.
First off we see that he is talking about all nations in a world where only a small group of people had ever heard of Him. He isn’t dividing them into groups of those who followed Him and those who didn’t. The sheep in this are the ones who cared for those in need, regardless of their societal position, and without thought of personal reward. It has nothing to do with what they believed; it was all to do with how they loved and cared for others, and again, without thought of reward.
quote:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:42for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.46And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
The goats then are those who neglected those in need, or in other words those that went through life looking out for number one. I would agree with you that also included in this group there would be followers of Yahweh and/or Jesus who felt that by performing charitable acts they would receive a reward for what they did. That idea would be consistent with Matthew 7:21 where it is clear that to be a follower of Jesus requires more than intellectual assent while looking for personal gain.
In the end it is all about humble kindness, mercy and justice; do we love selfishly or unselfishly.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 2:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 8:10 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 350 of 466 (641188)
11-17-2011 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by GDR
11-17-2011 8:01 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
I think the Goats will be almost all Christians, for why would someone who had never heard of Jesus or was not a follower of Jesus say "44Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?"
Someone who was not a follower of Jesus would know that they never had done anything for Jesus.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 8:01 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 8:36 PM jar has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 351 of 466 (641189)
11-17-2011 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by jar
11-17-2011 6:01 PM


LET THERE BE LIGHT.
quote:
There are many Christians that view Christianity and Christians as Jesus chosen people just as there are many Jews (and were many Jews in Jesus day) that viewed the Hebrews as a Chosen People.
Yet Jews were not chosen to have loads of land, population, power, oil or water. In fact they were given the smallest patch of all nations, with half desert, surrounded by killer nations, exiled, holocausted and said to have no right to exist. Have you heard the one about Jews occupying Jerusalem and Hebron!?
Yet those who chant LOVE IS ALL YOU NEED and PEACE BE UPON YOU are raging mad with red eyes and blood dripping from their lips for 2000 years now. They have become 'subject to Jews' belief systems - to the extent they cannot uphold a belief in the Creator if Jews are not bad. They have made the Holy Creator a cursory after thought - if even that.
I say, there is chosen - and there is CHOSEN. Choose your chosen:
1. No Salvation but through JC. [Chosen by exclusive kingdom keys]
2. No Paradise but through Big Mo. [Chosen by the last and final no-buts last word from Allah]
3. Be a light unto the nations [Chosen by example only]
I say, next time please choose someone else.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 6:01 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 352 of 466 (641190)
11-17-2011 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by jar
11-17-2011 8:10 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
This is an eschatological mesasage. He has gathered all the nations before Him. There is no longer doubt about who He is. They just didn't recognize the concept that all acts of unselfish love are actually done for Him whether we recognize it or not.
You used to have a Narnia quote as a signature, so I assume that you are familiar with "The Last Battle". Here is a quote from it. Tash of course represents the evil one while the lion, Aslan is of course a Christ figure.
quote:
Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 8:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 8:41 PM GDR has replied
 Message 356 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2011 8:53 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 353 of 466 (641191)
11-17-2011 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by GDR
11-17-2011 8:36 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
And as in that fable, I believe heaven will be filled, if heaven exists, with far more Taoists, Satanist, Jews, Wicaans, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheist, Agnostics, Animists, Diest, Pagans, followers of the Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Germanic Gods and of Confucius, Mencius and even Coyote than there will be Christians there.
But the Goats will still be almost totally made up of Christians.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 8:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 8:57 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 354 of 466 (641192)
11-17-2011 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by jar
11-17-2011 6:01 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
jar writes:
There are many Christians that view Christianity and Christians as Jesus chosen people just as there are many Jews (and were many Jews in Jesus day) that viewed the Hebrews as a Chosen People.
A popular marketing tactic when selling Christianity is that it is only those who profess Jesus, are washed in the Blood of the Lamb, are Born Again, have been Saved, been Called to the Altar, touched by the Hand of God, and a whole bunch of other bumper sticker trivialities, only those member of the "in Crowd" get to go to Heaven.
I think that the mistake is made in thinking that being chosen makes anyone special or that they are going to enjoy salvation while others don't. It isn't that the Jews or the church are chosen for salvation but IMHO they are chosen for vocation. Their vocation is about taking God's truth, love, mercy, justice, peace, forgiveness etc to the world. Before someone else says it; I agree that we aren't making much of a job of it. It seems so much of the focus is on me and my salvation which is just putting the focus back on ourselves which is just the opposite of what Jesus taught.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 6:01 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 355 of 466 (641193)
11-17-2011 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by jar
11-17-2011 3:19 PM


Re: Jesus was not a Christian!
quote:
Israel, as a chosen people, is yet another meaning, one that Jesus explains is a totally false belief.
Come, let us reason together. If Christians rejected Mohammed because they wanted Jesus to tell them the score, why not also demand that only Moses can speak on his own behalf? Consider:
If Jesus came again, and he said something in contradiction of the Quran - would Muslims prostrate and agree?
Or let's say Mohammed came again, and he said something in contradiction of the Gospels - would all Christians kneel and say thank you?
It begs the question what if Moses came again, and said TUT! TUT! Both JC & Mo all got it wrong.
Of course none know what will or can happen. But till the fat lady finishes her song, it is reasonable to have a Plan B. We might just get a result which is not popular and the most un-anticipated questions in our faces. If Christianity and Islam are in mutual contradiction of each other, then I say both must show some credibility and metal - only Moses - not JC or MO - can clear up this mess!
WHAT IS HATEFUL TO YOU - ASK NOT OF OTHERS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 3:19 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 356 of 466 (641195)
11-17-2011 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by GDR
11-17-2011 8:36 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
quote:
There is no longer doubt about who He is.
That has to be the ubsurdist statement in all recorded history. No human is more un-proven than Jesus and the Gospel figures. No names has cost more innocent lives than that of Jesus. Not a shred of proof, evidence, parchment, relic, cross-nation reference or indicator exists - in a time when such proof would be and should be blatant with no excuses legitimate. Hello!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 8:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 9:00 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 357 of 466 (641196)
11-17-2011 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by jar
11-17-2011 8:41 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
jar writes:
And as in that fable, I believe heaven will be filled, if heaven exists, with far more Taoists, Satanist, Jews, Wicaans, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheist, Agnostics, Animists, Diest, Pagans, followers of the Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Germanic Gods and of Confucius, Mencius and even Coyote than there will be Christians there.
But the Goats will still be almost totally made up of Christians.
On what grounds do you believe that? If you accept that Matthew 25 actual represents some form of truth then to me it is clear that it is about having unselfish hearts, and I can't see where you have basis on which to make a judgement about which group is likely or not likely to fit that profile.
Personally I dislike talking about salvation. I resisted getting involved in this discussion as I don't feel I have much to say, but I just had questions about how you were interpreting Matthew 25. As for who winds up where when time comes to an end I think is best left up to God, and in the meantime I'll just kinda muddle along trying to serve His kingdom as I understand it. If I have my theology all wrong then so be it.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 8:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 8:59 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 358 of 466 (641197)
11-17-2011 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by GDR
11-17-2011 8:57 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Let's walk through it one small step at a time.
Do you think there have been more Taoists, Satanist, Jews, Wicaans, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheist, Agnostics, Animists, Diest, Pagans, followers of the Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Germanic Gods and of Confucius, Mencius and even Coyote than there have been Christians

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 8:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by GDR, posted 11-17-2011 9:07 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 359 of 466 (641198)
11-17-2011 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by IamJoseph
11-17-2011 8:53 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
IaJ writes:
That has to be the ubsurdist statement in all recorded history. No human is more un-proven than Jesus and the Gospel figures. No names has cost more innocent lives than that of Jesus. Not a shred of proof, evidence, parchment, relic, cross-nation reference or indicator exists - in a time when such proof would be and should be blatant with no excuses legitimate. Hello!?
You may be right. My statement was based on accepting the essential truth of the statement in Matthew 25. I'll try to avoid making such ubsurbist statements in the future.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2011 8:53 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2011 9:15 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 360 of 466 (641199)
11-17-2011 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by jar
11-17-2011 8:59 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
jar writes:
Let's walk through it one small step at a time.
Do you think there have been more Taoists, Satanist, Jews, Wicaans, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheist, Agnostics, Animists, Diest, Pagans, followers of the Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Germanic Gods and of Confucius, Mencius and even Coyote than there have been Christians
Fine, but don't forget you also said:
quote:
But the Goats will still be almost totally made up of Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 8:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by jar, posted 11-17-2011 9:23 PM GDR has replied

  
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