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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 32 of 270 (641305)
11-18-2011 2:37 PM


Set your own prices.
I get tea and coffee from the grocery store, but I never pay what they have on the items.

The store I use has my favorite Mate-based green tea mix for $9.00/lb. The thing is they never check your bag to see what tea is in it, you can put a label on it for the cheapest black tea they sell. But I think their black teas are expensive as well. Since the tea is loose in containers, and you have to put it into a bag, and place it on the scale, and print out the weight and cost then take it up to the register and pay, I just hold the bag over the scale till the price reads something I like, like $1.50 or less. Then I print that and put it on the bad and take it to the register, and pay for it and go home.

My friend told me this is stealing. I maintain that it is bargaining. Its me setting the price I am willing to pay for the tea most idiots pay $9/lb. for. They have the option at the register, to say no this huge bag of tea costs more than $1.50, in which case I would say I am uninterested in that price and I will not make the purchase (this never happens though). I am still paying for the tea, just not what they are asking for.

It works really well with bulk candy too. One time I got a huge bag of Jelly Bellies for $0.75.

It works for coffee as well. It works for anything where you have to weigh it and print a price out for it from the scale.

"Everyday I'm Hustlin" -- Rick Ross


Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 11-18-2011 2:46 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 37 of 270 (641318)
11-18-2011 3:13 PM


Rahvin writes:

It is in no way "bargaining," which requires both parties' awareness that price is being negotiated. You're not informing the register person that you're paying something less than the advertised rate - you're intentionally trying to pass your little deception off without them noticing, because you know full well that if they ever noticed that they'd charge you full price - and possibly ban you from their store.

I realize the whole thing about using the black tea label, so I dont use it, I was saying that you could switch labels if you wanted, sorry if that was unclear.

The label I present to the cashier says the price ($1.50), the price per pound of the tea ($9.00) (and its in a 1 pound bag). I feel as if they do not care, they scan the item and move on. All the information is on the bag. I basically hand them a 1 pound bag, that has a sticker on it that reads 0.15 pounds.
It is a hustle, but I am still paying for it, so I do not think it is stealing.

Crashfrog writes:

Let me put it this way. While you're asleep in your apartment, I come in and take your TV. It's not "stealing", we're haggling over the price of your TV - I'm offering a price of zero dollars, and if you don't like that offer, you have the option to wake up, notice I'm taking your TV, and make a counter-offer. (Say, three rounds in the chest from the handgun in your nightstand?) As it is, I just take your continued slumber as implicit acceptance of my offer. I mean, you had the option!
Deal? Don't worry, I'll find your address. I'll even let myself in!


I Live in a house. You have to get past the German Sheppard, who is a very light sleeper. And the counter offer comes in the form of a 12 gauge (handguns do to much collateral damage).
Replies to this message:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 41 of 270 (641325)
11-18-2011 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Modulous
11-18-2011 3:24 PM


Re: fraud
really minor fraud considering I buy hippy organic milk, and vegan mayonnaise, and a ton of other crap that costs twice as much as anywhere else. so I save $7.50 on the tea, $5 on coffee, and $10 on candy, I still get $60 worth of groceries when I go in there, and I do not think they give shit.

If you can't do the time don't do the crime. I have looked this one up already and out here it is a petty offense $25 fine. as is anything under $200.

What about this scenario. I have been witness to it, but I don't have the guts myself:

You fill up your shopping cart top and bottom with goods, then you go to the self checkout, and only ring up and pay for the items on the top of the cart. There is a store employee standing 15ft (<5m) away from you watching you. The trick is they hire Droids to watch the customers, these droids get paid to stand around, they are doing their job, but they are also "allowing" you to only pay for half of the items in your cart. My good friend does this all the time, probably every-time he goes to the store.

Post 666 YEAH ROCK ON gotta listen to some Maiden now. "In the night, the fires are burning bright, the ritual has begun, Satans work is done! --Bruce Dickinson

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : POST 666

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 3:24 PM Modulous has responded

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 Message 43 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 4:21 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 4:23 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 11-18-2011 4:43 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 49 of 270 (641349)
11-18-2011 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Modulous
11-18-2011 4:21 PM


Re: fraud
Modolous writes:

My job partially revolves around catching fraudsters. This is the same rationalization that credit card fraudsters and insurance fraudsters come up with all the time. Just a FYI.


PHD Player hater dgree.

If that were true, you would not need the deceptive practices and you could approach them honestly and say 'I am providing you with large profit margins on the rest of my goods, can I get a discount on this tea?' If they really don't give a shit, as you say...

They dont I was with a friend who works there, and he saw me setting prices for my tea, and was like what the hell are you doing? I explained it to him. And he said oh. Then I said he should turn a blind eye since he works there, he said they dont care, they dont even prosecute people they catch stealing food, they are more concerned with public opinion of them. to which I said ooooooh, well in that case

This is a criminal morality, not the kind of morality you should aspire to I would have thought. The fact that you looked this up, means you also know it is a criminal offense, just one that is so minor so that people won't be motivated to enforce it, and even if they did you can cope with the penalty.

Yeah but there is no God or any afterliferight? so fuck it! Ima get mine. Milq da game.
I love it when liberal atheists tell me about morality. Oh the irony.
I bet you have never illegally downloaded any music, or anything on the internet, right? Me neither

Using the apathy of employees is a tactic of fraudsters.

Is that a British word? Across the pond we say Hustlers or Hustlaz, and there are some good songs about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9TouRnO84
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_dh16HQkqQ&ob=av3e

You're certainly not alone, many people will commit fraud, sometimes even serious fraud, if an opportunity presents itself.

Yes, but mine is petty, so its no biggie.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 4:21 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 11-18-2011 5:50 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply
 Message 53 by hooah212002, posted 11-18-2011 5:51 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply
 Message 55 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 5:56 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 50 of 270 (641350)
11-18-2011 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 4:23 PM


Re: fraud
Dr. Adequate writes:


Stealing.
Look, suppose you leave your house, and while you're out someone burgles it and robs you of all your possessions. Is that theft? I would say yes. But wait! You didn't hire security guards to watch your house when you were out. You "did not give shit". So has anyone really stolen from you?
What if you did hire security guards, but they were incompetent? Well then they did "not give shit". So apparently no theft has been committed.
I think it was theft, 'cos of them taking stuff that was yours but not theirs. If you really disagree with that on principle, then perhaps you could give me your address, 'cos apparently then I could take all your stuff and you wouldn't regard it as theft.


Of course I would, but I do pay them something. If you burgled me but left me $250, it would suck, but Id be alright, because I have insurance on all my shit. And the $250 deductible would be paid for by you, and I would get all new stuff.

Wanna come over I need a new PC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 4:23 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 5:44 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 54 of 270 (641354)
11-18-2011 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
11-18-2011 4:43 PM


Re: fraud
Phat writes:

Artemis is a prime example of some of the activity I encounter. At least he(you) are honest enough to tell us about it...I suspect that you are boasting. You feel better about life when you get a bargain that not everyone else gets.


Not boasting just sharing some game. Though your misunderstanding is the main reason you dont talk to squares about the hustle.

Trouble is, you have set the terms for your bargain...which by the way is out and out fraud....and have informed us that you justify it in your own mind and in your own way. Fine...I appreciate your honesty and wont get mad at you personally for having the balls to discuss it with us.

It doesnt take any balls, because this becomes a hypothetical question real fast if this gets serious, I could be making all this up for the purpose of a discussion please dont tell me that after 666+ posts anyone here takes me serious at all.

In a way, I understand the thrill that shoplifting often gives people.

I dont consider it shoplifting. The thrill is saving some money.

The sad fact is, competition drives the market, and many are turning to dishonest means to get ahead in life.

Yes we refer to those people as Americans.

I hope that technology someday allows enough of a big brother presence so that everybody has to pay the same prices. I can't stand anyone getting better "deals" than I do.

Yuck. Maybe if America ceases to exist and some authoritarian crazy place is here instead, or you could just move to the UK.

SIDE NOTE on EVC POSTING POLITENESS: should I respond to each and every person like I just did here, or is one big response with individuals quoted better?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 57 of 270 (641357)
11-18-2011 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 5:44 PM


Re: fraud
Dr Adequate writes:

Curiously enough, leaving $250 was not part of my plan.
Now, try again. If I burgle your house, and get away with it, is that theft?

I said yes already.
Its insured Ill be alright.

jar writes:

Sorry Charlie but you are just a common criminal.

Always looking for an opportunity for name calling.

hooah212002 writes:

Have you ever had a serious/non-troll discussion on this forum?

Why bother?
My choices are: call creationists names and make fun of them (boring option), or take a position outside of the status quo, and entice discussion (not boring to me). What you call trolling I call fueling a debate, if everyone agreed all the time then this would suck. Anytime anyone disagrees with the OP they are a troll from your perspective it seems, but from mine it is just part of the fun of discussing topics on a message board.
Unfortunately there are people like you and Jar who have to resort to ad hominem, because they cant form a rebuttal, or they are just too lazy too. But I guess it takes all kinds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 5:44 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 6:08 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 64 by hooah212002, posted 11-18-2011 6:25 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 66 by DrJones*, posted 11-18-2011 6:35 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 60 of 270 (641360)
11-18-2011 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Modulous
11-18-2011 5:56 PM


Re: fraud
Modolous writes:

Fraudster is an English word. Hustler is a colloquial term for 'con man'. Con-men are often fraudsters, but most 'hustlers' would regard underpaying for tea as pathetic petty theft (though they may still go ahead and do it).

English, British you know what I meant same difference, lets not get into semantics till like page 7 or 8.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am lecturing you or something. I am not suggesting that you are a terrible person for committing crimes, I'm just pointing out that it is criminal behaviour.
I was just responding your stated position that 'My friend told me this is stealing. I maintain that it is bargaining.' and saying it wasn't bargaining, it was fraud.
You seem to be agreeing with me on that point.

I do. You are fun on here. Ok its fraud. Not stealing. Ha ha I knew he was wrong. I was wrong too, but me agreeing with you that its fraud also means that Dr Adequate is wrong (and he NEVER admits that), because he is dead set that it is stealing.

I am going to lock in with Modolous here. It is fraudulent behavior, Not stealing.
I dont steal, Im no thief. I Fraud stuff.

Maybe so, but it is not 'bargaining' nor is it really cool or clever enough to be considered 'hustling'.

LOL nice try. I aint about to share the good stuff publicly on the itnernets, sorry dog , you got to figure that part of the game out on your own.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 5:56 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 6:53 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 62 of 270 (641362)
11-18-2011 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 6:08 PM


Re: fraud
Dr Adequate writes:

Interesting. Do you consider an animal shaped like a horse with black and white stripes to be a zebra?


ROFL, haha =D.
Its good to be back while you are on here, to challenge me with questions I look retarded for answering. yeah i would probably call that a Zebra.

Your kung fu is too strong.

Dr Adequate writes:

So how is that different from your justification for stealing, i.e. that you can get away with it?

Im going to side with this Modolous guy (I know siding with the british-english can only lead to trouble, but it me so Im going to give it a try).
Its Fraud, not stealing.

Obviously theists need their moral superiors to lecture them on morality. This is not ironic, this is kinda bleedin' obvious. Perhaps you'd prefer one of your priests who'll tell you that theft is fine and so is raping children, but if you want instruction in any subject, you should look to the people who are better than you.

you didn't answer my question now. let me rephrase it: If there is no God and no eternal punishment, why shouldn't I steal, fraud, rape, and do what ever i want?

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : added quotes from post 61


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 6:08 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 6:40 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 69 by jar, posted 11-18-2011 6:46 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 65 of 270 (641365)
11-18-2011 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by hooah212002
11-18-2011 6:25 PM


the troll is in your mirror
and you are a fucking asshole.

there i'm playing your silly game now. unfortunately you don't understand the difference between what i do and what trolls do, but its your loss not mine.

I am on here discussing something with Modolus, Dr. Adequate, Phat, and anyone else who wants to jump in.

You are the one on here flaming, name calling and causing a disturbance, making off topic posts that are personal attacks against me. the 3 mentioned above are not making this personal, you are. it is something you do all the time, in MY BOOK you are the troll in this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by hooah212002, posted 11-18-2011 6:25 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 11-18-2011 6:59 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 68 of 270 (641369)
11-18-2011 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by DrJones*
11-18-2011 6:35 PM


are you one of those French Canadians?
was that rhetorical?

do I need to explain how calling someone a name is calling some one a name.

It's all very semantic, Something I was trying to avoid till page 7 or 8, but this really is off topic so maybe it doesn't count.

Poster A: that action is criminal. (not name calling)

Poster B: You are a criminal. (name calling)

see the difference?

its about attitude, some people here (left wingers IMO) love to demonize and call other people names. its just rude. and against the rules of the site. It take much more skill, and ability, to say some is a criminal without the name calling. I get it when the others say that is criminal, or that is something a thief would do, or that is something fraudsters do. but they are not name calling because they have skills. there are those with less skills who just show up make a one or two line post, and say "you are a X". that is name calling, they are the name callers, unfortunately they are here.

you and I; and I would assume everyone can refer to an action or a post or a thought of someone else unfavorably without calling them a name directly. it's about attitude, some people are just assholes about it, yet thankfully most are not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by DrJones*, posted 11-18-2011 6:35 PM DrJones* has responded

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 Message 70 by DrJones*, posted 11-18-2011 6:47 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 72 of 270 (641373)
11-18-2011 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 6:40 PM


Re: fraud
Dr Adequate writes:

'Cos it's wrong.


Yeah theres some vernacular, Id love to keep is casual in the coffee house.

Interesting I should answer your questions, but you cannot give me the same respect.

What is wrong? Are you telling me there is a God, and there is an afterlife?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 6:40 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 6:58 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 74 of 270 (641375)
11-18-2011 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 6:48 PM


Re: are you one of those French Canadians?
i don't get what you are saying here?

I'm guessing you are trying to saying I am guilty of the same thing, but I am not.

I didn't specifically call anyone anything except Hoah (who called me a name first.) I won't break the rules, but if they are getting broken, and the admin is doing nothing about it, then I will defend myself, and retaliate.

Left wingers could be anyone or it could be no one. "some people" is not specifically target at anyone.

nice try though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 6:48 PM Dr Adequate has responded

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 78 of 270 (641379)
11-18-2011 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Modulous
11-18-2011 6:53 PM


YAY back on topic.
Modulous writes:

We're in a thread discussing whether an act of petty fraud constitutes stealing.
That is to say: we're already into semantics

Whew. I am just glad to be back on to the topic, rather than defending myself from the name callers and their fans.

Shit. I guess we are dangit.

Anyway, I was trying to draw the distinction between a uniquely British term and an English word used beyond the shores of Britain. As far as I am aware, 'fraudster' is not just a British term. I may be wrong, though.
Hustler is an American term, but it has made its way over to our culture too now. We have a show here called 'The Real Hustle' (which is a sort of spin off from a fictional series called 'The Hustle'), where apparently real people are fake hustled as a means of showing many of the common cons that are out there.

Right on. I wanted to make sure I wasnt reading into anything. There was another post I think it was cavediver, where he said he was out in a field looking for a wallet with a torch. And all I could think of is DANG get a flashlight, but to him torch = flashlight. To me torch is stick that is on fire. Sometimes what we say to each other gets lost in translation.

The question is, is fraud theft? I would say that it does constitute stealing, since it is taking something you would not normally be entitled to take given your actual financial investment made.

I think it is dishonest. And I know it is illegal, but I do not think it constitutes theft. I think the crime is Fraud, if the crime were theft then I would not have an argument.


And right back at ya, on the 'fun' front.

I am glad that not everyone is so serious and thinks I am trolling. The thing is, I do not care if I am right or wrong. If you guys can prove to me that I am wrong then great. I learned something today. I am not trying to win an argument. Personally I find that debating something from the POV of the other side makes me better at debating (even if I loose everytime), because I have to think about something from a different angle than I do personally. Too some this is the definition of a Troll; I have seen trolls on other sites, they have no skills at all, its just personal attacks, and non-thought out crazy talk to elicit a response. I want a response, but I want to discuss it, not make you mad about it.

Since I already said, I professionally engage with fraudsters on a daily basis, I can assure you I know many tricks of my own. I already know how to get away with tens of thousands of pounds with only a few hours of time invested

Yeah but I am sure the penalty, and chance of discovery is too rough. That or maybe its something cultural, maybe us greedy time is money Americans would most likely jump all over that, and Englishmen are not that way. I dunno.


I was once offered a sizeable series of bribes to facilitate almost legal activity (I would have to break a law with a relatively minor criminal penalty, and I knew that I wouldn't be prosecuted because of reputation issues). I'll leave it to your imagination as to whether I accepted the bribes, but to alleviate any sense that I am trying to get on some high moral horse, I was offered the bribes by a co-conspirator during another crime I was engaged in at the time.

You shouldve IMO. I realize you are not on a moral High horse, though I appreciate your civility. What is your reasoning though for not taking advantage of the situation though?

As I mentioned earlier, I think most people would commit fraud if they thought they could get away with it. Misrepresent some material fact to get cheaper insurance, or to to claim more welfare benefit than they are entitled to. Some people simply don't realize how easy fraud is.

Where I am from most people do. It is foreign to me that many people do not understand how easy fraud is. It is also hard to prosecute, because many times intent must be shown. Later on tonight, Dr Adequate is going to come over and steal all my stuff, then we are going to split the insurance money, if we both keep our mouths shut they will never find out. He Says he is keeping it, and just stealing it, but he HAS to say though or else we will get caught.

As one person in the financial sector once said. "If you're going to steal, steal big.". Another strategy is to do as you do, steal really small. Trying to steal (sorry, defraud ) $100k is the kind of thing that'll get you in serious trouble.

Stealing big is a bad idea IMO. Great risk and great reward, but I am far to conservative for that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 6:53 PM Modulous has responded

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2365 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 79 of 270 (641380)
11-18-2011 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 6:58 PM


Re: fraud
Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.

yeah I thought i said that in #74. I am not following you at all right now.

SLOW DOWN


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 6:58 PM Dr Adequate has responded

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