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Author Topic:   Evidence for a recent flood
Portillo
Member (Idle past 2331 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 121 of 404 (639768)
11-03-2011 6:18 PM


Alright I wont use quotes anymore.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Panda, posted 11-03-2011 7:02 PM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 124 by Pressie, posted 11-04-2011 3:59 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1883 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 122 of 404 (639774)
11-03-2011 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Portillo
11-03-2011 6:18 PM


Portillo writes:

Alright I wont use quotes anymore.

Quotes are fine - but you need to have understood them in context.
e.g.
If I was to claim that you thought that Judaism is the only correct religion because you stated in Message 17 that "The Jewish nation in the old testament is a perfect example." then you would be correct to point out that I had misunderstood and quote-mined what you were saying.

Quote-mining is wrong: it is lying.
Unfortunately web-sites like AnswerInGenesis and The Institute for Creation Research repeatedly use them.
This means that whenever they claim that "a scientist" said something - you cannot take their word for it. You need to check it is true.

When they knowingly make false claims on their web-site, it tars honest believers with the same brush.

Every time you use their quote-mines you are supporting their lies - you are not supporting God.
God doesn't need lies.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Portillo, posted 11-03-2011 6:18 PM Portillo has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 404 (639789)
11-03-2011 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Dr Adequate
10-31-2011 9:31 PM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
But for this one thing that didn't happen --- Noah's flood --- they're falling all over themselves to provide a totally naturalistic explanation for it. Hovind with his comet, Henry Morris with his vapor canopy, they've just got to find a way to take God out of the picture.

In Hovind's defense(?), comets and meteors cannot do the kind of stuff he claims this one did, so perhaps we cannot call the explanation 'totally naturalistic'.

quote:
they can explain real things by imaginary causes, or imaginary things by real causes, but they baulk at explaining imaginary things by imaginary causes.

Astonishing.

ABE

After thinking about this some more, it is probably true that Hovind is purporting to believe that comets act as he describes and that the video is an attempt at a naturalistic explanation. It's just that Hovind is a professional loon.

Edited by NoNukes, : ABE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-31-2011 9:31 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2032
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 124 of 404 (639810)
11-04-2011 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Portillo
11-03-2011 6:18 PM


Portillo

Quotes are fine, as long as they are put into context and you, yourself can understand them and where the quote comes from. What is not fine is quote-mining, where the quote-mine you use has the opposite meaning of what the writer of the quote actually meant trying to convey a message.

What also is not acceptable is a vague reference of somebody pretending that he read the quote somewhere. Like you did with the "5 million mammaths" thing. The original actual publication is nowhere to be found.

If you quote someone, give a proper reference. Not a vague reference from a creationist tract where they reference another creationist where they reference another creationist, but you never see the original reference.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Portillo, posted 11-03-2011 6:18 PM Portillo has not yet responded

    
Portillo
Member (Idle past 2331 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 125 of 404 (641248)
11-18-2011 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Panda
10-31-2011 9:22 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
quote:
Why do you think that the Flood could rapidly freeze the mammoths?

Scientists found a 15,000 pound mammoth in Siberia. It is so fresh that you could cut it and grill it on your grill and it would be perfect steak. And when they cut it open they found inside its stomach, perfect yellow buttercups (flowers). The only way a 15,000 pound elephant could be frozen that quick and preserve what is in its stomach, is to be frozen in a freezer that is 150 degrees below zero. Where on earth do we find a freezer like that? At the climatic moment, when the surface of the earth was ruptured and the fountains of the deep broke loose and the Genesis flood occured. Geysers of super heated water went 20 miles up into the air, exploded and came down as ice onto the earth.

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Panda, posted 10-31-2011 9:22 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Larni, posted 11-18-2011 8:05 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 127 by Panda, posted 11-18-2011 9:11 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 128 by jar, posted 11-18-2011 9:33 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 129 by JonF, posted 11-18-2011 10:25 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 130 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 10:56 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 131 by Theodoric, posted 11-18-2011 11:08 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 132 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-18-2011 1:01 PM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 134 by pandion, posted 11-19-2011 2:27 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 126 of 404 (641250)
11-18-2011 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Portillo
11-18-2011 7:51 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
The only way a 15,000 pound elephant could be frozen that quick and preserve what is in its stomach is to be frozen in a freezer that is 150 degrees below zero.

Nonsense.

Animal dies in sub zero temperature. Biological processes stop. Digestion stops. Animal freezes solid in a few hours. Animal still has non digested matter in stomach.

This happens all the time.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.

Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Portillo has not yet responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1883 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 127 of 404 (641260)
11-18-2011 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Portillo
11-18-2011 7:51 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Portillo writes:

The only way a 15,000 pound elephant could be frozen that quick and preserve what is in its stomach, is to be frozen in a freezer that is 150 degrees below zero. Where on earth do we find a freezer like that? At the climatic moment, when the surface of the earth was ruptured and the fountains of the deep broke loose and the Genesis flood occured. Geysers of super heated water went 20 miles up into the air, exploded and came down as ice onto the earth.

When the floods started, the geysers shot water 20 miles up, which then exploded and came back down as ice-rain.

Why do you think that ice-rain was able to rapidly freeze mammoths?


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30994
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(4)
Message 128 of 404 (641265)
11-18-2011 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Portillo
11-18-2011 7:51 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Evidence Portillo, do you have any evidence.

Not just unsupported assertions but evidence.

Where is the mammoth data?

Where is there any evidence that there ever were fountain of the deep?

Where is there any evidence that they would shoot geysers of super heated water that went 20 miles up into the air, exploded and came down as ice on the earth.

The thread is about evidence for a recent flood not fantasy, not cuddawuddashudda.

Do you have any evidence of a recent flood?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4887
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 129 of 404 (641269)
11-18-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Portillo
11-18-2011 7:51 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Scientists found a 15,000 pound mammoth in Siberia. It is so fresh that you could cut it and grill it on your grill and it would be perfect steak. And when they cut it open they found inside its stomach, perfect yellow buttercups (flowers).

You are obviously getting your information from untrustworthy sources. As quoted at Chapter 1: The Berezovka Mammoth:

quote:
Death must have certainly occurred very quickly, after it had fallen into a crevasse in the ice, for in its mouth, on the well-preserved tongue, and between its molars we found unchewed food. It consisted of leafy plants and grasses, of whom a few had seeds ...

Now the walls of the stomach could be seen. They had a grayish-black, in some places, a dark-brown color, and were strongly decomposed. They had also been torn apart by carnivores, so that out of the rents everywhere the contents of the stomach were coming out. Of the vital intestines, heart, lung, liver, nothing was preserved. Carnivores have obviously eaten them up. Of the skin on the head, a few parts were still there, so the right cheek with the lower half of the eyelid, with a deep eye-lash-bag, and also the lower lip, which was covered with blackish stiff hair ...

The well preserved flesh on the upper arm, on the upper thigh, and also on the pelvis, was covered with thick layers of fat. As long as it was still frozen, it had a rather delicious appearance of a dark-red color, just like frozen beef and horsemeat, but was more coarse-fibered. But as soon, as it thawed out, it changed its appearance completely. It became flabby and gray, and gave off a distasteful, stinking, ammonia-like smell, which went through everything.


Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 130 of 404 (641274)
11-18-2011 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Portillo
11-18-2011 7:51 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
The only way a 15,000 pound elephant could be frozen that quick and preserve what is in its stomach, is to be frozen in a freezer that is 150 degrees below zero. Where on earth do we find a freezer like that?

Show your working.

At the climatic moment, when the surface of the earth was ruptured and the fountains of the deep broke loose and the Genesis flood occured. Geysers of super heated water went 20 miles up into the air, exploded and came down as ice onto the earth.

Fortunately Noah and his floating zoo had wrapped up warm and were unaffected by temperatures 150 degrees below zero.

---

Incidentally, you still haven't answered my question. If the mammoths were preserved in situ, does that mean that all the geology under them is pre-flood in origin?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6306
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 131 of 404 (641275)
11-18-2011 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Portillo
11-18-2011 7:51 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
It is so fresh that you could cut it and grill it on your grill and it would be perfect steak.

Bullshit. Provide the evidence.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Portillo has not yet responded

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(3)
Message 132 of 404 (641296)
11-18-2011 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Portillo
11-18-2011 7:51 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
the technical reasons to dispute this claim have already been covered so I will just add some advise.

Scientists found a 15,000 pound mammoth in Siberia. It is so fresh that you could cut it and grill it on your grill and it would be perfect steak.

That does not even sound remotely plausible.

Mammoths last existed in Siberia around 8000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth). I know that terms like 'fresh' and 'perfect' are subjective but any meat that has been frozen for 10 000 years is not going to be good. 12 months is the longest you should keep meat in a deep freeze. It wont kill you to eat it, it will just be bad to eat. A 10 000 year froaen steak is going to be very, very bad.

And when they cut it open they found inside its stomach, perfect yellow buttercups (flowers). The only way a 15,000 pound elephant could be frozen that quick and preserve what is in its stomach, is to be frozen in a freezer that is 150 degrees below zero.

This also does not sound plausible. If an animal dies in any sub zero temperature, decomopsition will be very, very slow. That is why you put food in your fridge and freezer. If it was a few degrees below zero, the temperature of an animal no longer producing its own body heat will decrease quite rapidly. This is particularly true in very dry air environments like Siberia.

Plain old common sense should ring alarm bells when reading information like what you have posted.

My advise to you before posting -

1. Consider your source. If the source you are about to quote has obvious reason for bias, find a second source. Just to double check the information for accuracy.

2. Have a think about what you are about to post. If you think about it critically and it sounds a little implausible or too good to be true, then it probably is. Double check your information.

Many of the regular posters here are degree or higher qualified and are used to critical reasoning so when you post on the science side make sure your work has had a polish.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Portillo has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12602
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 133 of 404 (641297)
11-18-2011 1:08 PM


Moderator Request about Evidence
Not only is this thread in one of the science forums, where evidence is all, but the word "evidence" is even in the title of this thread: Evidence for a recent flood.

Please do not argue any position for which you're not prepared to offer evidence. Thanks.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
pandion
Member (Idle past 1171 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


(2)
Message 134 of 404 (641417)
11-19-2011 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Portillo
11-18-2011 7:51 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
quote:
Scientists found a 15,000 pound mammoth in Siberia. It is so fresh that you could cut it and grill it on your grill and it would be perfect steak.

Actually, someone lied to you and you bought into it. In all cases where efforts were made to extract viable DNA form any such frozen mammoth, it was so degraded that only fragments were extracted. All of the frozen mammoths were putrefied when excavated. How is that a "perfect steak?" All examples have been putrefied. In fact, some were discovered by the smell when they were exposed by chance.
quote:
And when they cut it open they found inside its stomach, perfect yellow buttercups (flowers).

They did not. They found stomach contents that could be identified as buttercups.
quote:
The only way a 15,000 pound elephant could be frozen that quick and preserve what is in its stomach, is to be frozen in a freezer that is 150 degrees below zero. Where on earth do we find a freezer like that? At the climatic moment, when the surface of the earth was ruptured and the fountains of the deep broke loose and the Genesis flood occured. Geysers of super heated water went 20 miles up into the air, exploded and came down as ice onto the earth.

What nonsense! Please present the evidence for what you claim.

Where and when was this perfect mammoth, with perfect yellow buttercups discovered. Please tell us about the autopsy that supports your claims. Why has it not been possible to extract a "perfect genome" from a "perfect steak?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Portillo, posted 11-18-2011 7:51 AM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Wollysaurus, posted 11-19-2011 7:54 AM pandion has not yet responded

  
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


(4)
Message 135 of 404 (641422)
11-19-2011 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by pandion
11-19-2011 2:27 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
The sad part is, this is an example of something that is very easy to learn about with the most basic of research outside of YEC circles. The most cursory Google search would give you enough information to conclude that the condition of preserved flesh had been grossly exaggerated in the YEC account. I suppose that the predators which fed upon the corpse were actually now-extinct marine reptiles; no doubt they did so when the corpse thawed out after being flash frozen by magical supercooled rain once the rising ocean covered Siberia, leaving no other evidence. The remains then somehow refroze instantly (after all, the creature was frozen standing up with flowers in its mouth while taking a dump, depending on what account you are presented with) after the pleseosaurs had their fill of delicious internal organs.

This tale was actually a part of a sermon I heard as a kid, which also included the revelation that the craters on the moon's surface are physical evidence of the war in heaven and Lucifer's fall.

To me, if you can swallow that sort of fairy tale without the tiny voice in your head telling you to dig a bit deeper, you're no different than someone who thinks they have to tear the heart out of a prisoner in order to make the sun rise. You just happen to have been born into another time and place, and a different mythos. I'm not saying all Christians buy into this sort of thing, but those that do certainly damage the religion as a whole's credibility.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by pandion, posted 11-19-2011 2:27 AM pandion has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Portillo, posted 11-20-2011 6:23 AM Wollysaurus has responded
 Message 140 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2011 11:19 PM Wollysaurus has not yet responded

  
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