Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What variety of creationist is Buzsaw? (Minnemooseus and Buzsaw only)
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 84 (639233)
10-29-2011 9:15 AM


Re: Buzsaw's Rock Wall
Hi again, Moose. This is getting interesting, and imo, problematic for you and the PG participants. In Message 19, Jon asserts:
quote:
Obviously Buz realizes that dating the rocks in his wall will produce an answer that's far older than the date his wall was constructed, and therefore radiometric dating of rocks can produce a date that's far older than the date they were formed.
The problem with this scenario is that formation of igneous and metamorphic rocks is not at all analogous to assembling a rock wall; we know how they are formed and modified and how that affects or does not affect their radiometric dates. Formation of sedimentary rocks can be thought of as somewhat analogous to assembling a wall, and that's why we don't do radiometric dates on sedimentary rocks (except for a few cases in which we date the "mortar" that holds the grains together).
The PG problem is growing. When radiometrically dating the strata, as some in PG are stating, the method, when applied to strata, does not factor my wall analogy.
Jon now admits that radiometrical dating is seldom used in strata. This brings us back to square one; my contention that the strata is usually dated by the fossils in it and the fossils are dated by the strata; circular reasoning and poor science, imo.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-29-2011 3:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 84 (639260)
10-29-2011 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Minnemooseus
10-29-2011 3:04 PM


Re: How fossils can date the rock
Moose writes:
The truth is, originally the rocks dated the fossils. The rocks were determined to be of x age, therefore the fossils were also of x age.
But you need to respond to my wall/nail = rock strata/fossil analogy. This falsifies the scientific methodology of radiometric fossil dating.
As the younger nail deposited in the wall would radiometrically date the age of the rock deposited in the young wall, so would the young Noaic flood deposited fossil radiometrically date the age of the old rock particles of which the flood deposited strata consisted.
We know, before forming our hypotheses when the wall was made. However nothing is known before research, about sub-terrain ancient strata. We set out at research and exploration, etc to make conclusions. The wall analogy is to show that objects deposited in strata may not date the same as the rock forming the strata.
Moose writes:
After much study, it was determined that not only was that true, certain fossils were characteristic of rocks of certain ages. Thus it came to be that the fossils can be used to date the rocks.
The creationist response to that is that slower moving animals would tend to be in the lower strata and so on until the birds and fast moving creatures able to escape to higher ground would have survived the longest, leaving relatively few fossils in the highest strata of the geologic column. This is more indicative to a catastrophic flood than a relatively uniform planet history.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-29-2011 3:04 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 84 (639264)
10-29-2011 6:43 PM


quote:
The analogy is erroneous. Consider your rock wall sitting on a poured concrete floor and supporting a poured concrete ceiling, The floor dates at 75 years old, the ceiling dates at 60 years old, the rocks in the wall date to 120 million years old, and we can tell from the construction of the wall that it's made of old rocks created long before the wall was built. How old is the wall?
Jon disregarded my point that the sole purpose of the wall/nail analogy is to show that the nail would radiometrically date the same as the deposited rock in the wall. Jon waived off my important point that all about the wall is known. The wall is not the hypothesis about the sub-terrain ancient strata. It's purpose is solely to falsify conclusions arrived at via radiometric dating of ancient fossils.
Again, we know data relative to the wall, whereas all we know about ancient sub-terrain strata is what can be derived via research, exploration, history and observable data etc.
I have shown, factually, that the deposited nail will radiometrically date the same age as the rock in which it was deposited at the time the wall rocks were sedimented.
None has effectively refuted that what applies to the rock wall would apply to fossils deposited in strata deposited via a flood some 4300 years ago.
As with the rock making up the wall, so the sand and other rock making up the sediment of strata would date older than the time when the strata was deposited and the wall was deposited/constructed.
quote:
Oh, and the igneous and metamorphic rocks we do date aren't deposited by floods or any form of water. We can tell.
The Biblical record denotes the breaking up of subterranean water. It would be a given assumption that extensive volcanic activity would have ensued globally, via a catastrophe so extensive as the Noaic flood producing the igneous rock Metamorphic rock, as I understand can include igneous or other rock, crystals, etc formed via heat and pressure.
In Psalms 104 we read of tectonic activity via the global flood, i.e. :the mountains rose and the valleys sank." My understanding is that the average thickness of the earth crust beneath oceans is three miles whereas the average under continents is 20 miles. This is indicative of the Psalms 104 statement.
Jon writes:
Buzsaw writes:
The creationist response to that is that slower moving animals would tend to be in the lower strata and so on until the birds and fast moving creatures able to escape to higher ground would have survived the longest, leaving relatively few fossils in the highest strata of the geologic column
Of course that pattern is not what is actually found in the geologic record, with elephants and blue whales found above the first birds and way above the first flying insects.
Perhaps Moose or someone in the PG will cite the source, whether this is the exception or the norm. It can be assumed that there will, assuming any global catastrophy, that there will be the by and large norm and the exceptions, due to the extent of what the Biblical flood depicts.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 11-01-2011 3:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 84 (641144)
11-16-2011 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Minnemooseus
11-11-2011 10:46 PM


Re: Origin Of High Mountains
Moose writes:
Buzsaw, in message 59, writes:
Offhand, you might also want to explain the methodology of piling up all that unconsolidated sediment into mountains. Mud doesn't stack very well.
This upheaval from the flood would be the Genesis explanation for the major tectonic plate upheaval and movement, raising the mountains and deepening the oceans. The effect of the flood would not been limited to sediments.
Short version of the Buzsaw evolution of the Earth story:
The flood tore down the Earth’s mountains and deposited the resulting sediments as the so called geologic column. This column includes most to all of what is filed under Cambrian and stratigraphically up. Miles and miles of geologic column, the sedimentary rocks showing the evidence of all kinds of different sedimentation processes. Then new mountains were uplifted and carved into their present form, as the flood waters receded to an unknown location.
Buz, that’s shoving a lot of process into one year. That’s nonsense.
It's nonsense because it's what you say I said. It's what my statements implied. If you copy what I said, it makes sense.
The pre-flood mountains were relatively small. The pre-flood oceans were relatively smaller and shallow. The pre-flood earth crust was relatively smooth, the thinner crusts being in the ocean regions and the thicker crusts being under the relatively low mountains.
Much of the pre-flood water was in the atmospheric vapor canopy and in subterranean bodies of water. When whatever triggered the flood happened the vapor canopy condensed and rained upon the earth. The amount of water that emerged upon the surface of the earth sank the thin ocean crusts and (abe:
tectonically raising up the mountains,) to greater heights as per Psalms 104.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted in context

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-11-2011 10:46 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 84 (641469)
11-19-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Minnemooseus
11-11-2011 10:46 PM


Re: That nail thing etc.
Moose writes:
Moving on
The only sensible way to date the walls construction would be to determine when the wall was built.
Which goes back to my question. Note carefully, my question; Applying the radiometric dating methodology,
Moose writes:
Buzsaw writes:
So the wall, being analogous to the strata in which the fossil exists, what determines the date of the wall/strata?
Your wall is a terrible analogy to geologic strata.
How so is it a terrible analogy? Because it debunks modern dating methodology? Methinks so.
Moose writes:
The age of the wall material is irrelevant. If one was to tear down a 500 year old brick wall and use the materials to build a new wall, the wall construction would be dated as being new, not 500 years old.
Buzsaw writes:
Assuming that the new wall, was built without mortar, as was the old one, of the same assorted materials, analogous to the fossil strata, would the new wall date any newer than the old wall/strata?
Yes, by your definition it would be a new wall.
Yes, of course; we know it's a new wall, just like we creationists know the fossils are relatively new fossils deposited by the flood.
Your problem applies to both. Your dating methodology dates both, the wall and the fossils as old because the sediment making up the sedimentary rocks are being dated as old rocks just like the rocks in the wall are old rocks and do not necessarily determine the date the wall was constructed.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add the word, "determine

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-11-2011 10:46 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 11-22-2011 5:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 84 (641833)
11-22-2011 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
11-19-2011 4:11 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery Out To Lunch, Or Stifled?
Moose and I bide our time, but I see the Peanut Gallery has descended deep into Topic page three.
Usually one or more of the folks participating in the Peanut Gallery have something to air about my points. Silence sometimes indicates inability to refute but not always. Perhaps everybody is busy with other matters, holiday travel and all.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 11-19-2011 4:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2011 6:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 84 (642352)
11-27-2011 11:17 PM


In Message 71 I said,
quote:
Yes, of course; we know it's a new wall, just like we creationists know the fossils are relatively new fossils deposited by the flood.
Your problem applies to both. Your dating methodology dates both, the wall and the fossils as old because the sediment making up the sedimentary rocks are being dated as old rocks just like the rocks in the wall are old rocks and do not necessarily determine the date the wall was constructed.
To elaborate, I have alluded in one of my messages about evolution problems of circularly dating fossils by strata and vise versa so as to avoid problems with each.
Dating igneous strata so as to date fossils in sedimentary strata might be an example of this. Whether igneous strata was deposited early or lately, nevertheless the material is old/early.
How do instruments distinguish age of material from age deposited. Put another way, doesn't the age of the fossil in the sedimentary strata play a role in dating the time the igneous was deposited, being the instrument would be unable, in itself, to date the old material making up the igneous strata deposited?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 84 (642386)
11-28-2011 8:57 AM


Re: Conventional Science Mindset
Evolutionists, in their futile attempt to rebuff the creationist argument that they practice circular methodology, unceasingly apply one flawed method to support the other flawed method.
We see phrases like, you've been told, and you need to understand the science of our direct dating methodology.
Firstly, they've also been told. Their mindset prevents them from listening. They disregard the creationist argument, unable to falsify them.
Secondly, their direct dating methodology directly dates the materials making up igneous rock which are, indeed, old, being unable in itself of determining when the strata was deposited, just as their direct dating methodology, in itself would fail to properly date when my basement wall was laid.
Thirdly, their science, as learned in school and applied on the field, will never consider any other option in their methodology and practice.
Thus, logic, reason and realistic, here and now, life observation go begging as they blindly travel the dark, mysterious, jungle junk science trail of disorder naturally progresses into order, i.e. the ToE.
Edited by Buzsaw, : replace word for clarity

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 84 (653819)
02-24-2012 3:14 PM


Bumping For Moose
Hi Moose. Bumping this lager up so as to address something else. If you have any topic you want to debate, have at it. Otherwise I would like to delve more into the canopy hypothesis or perhaps this biopoesis thingy or whatever. I'm not into having Trixie pass on my stuff to that thread, though she was very gracious for doing it for me. If Admin wants to honor the consensus of the members in that thread and open it to me. Fine. Otherwise there's plenty else to do, like debating you etc.
It's nice to have you participating as another one of us without all of the time directing entails.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Noted in color

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 76 of 84 (653845)
02-24-2012 9:28 PM


How Any One Can Predict The Future.
I need to get ready for Sabbath & church tomorrow so can't explain this now, but will likely have time after church and restaurant tomorrow. It should prove to be an interesting topic to debate with you if you're game.
ABE: On 2nd thought I think I want this one open for all to debate in the Coffee Shop. It should be a smoker.
Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-13-2012 9:06 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 84 (662235)
05-13-2012 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Minnemooseus
05-13-2012 9:06 PM


Re: A restart of sorts?
Thanks for your reply, Moose. I was hoping to continue with this debate.
Here's the deal. The Genesis and OT record along with the NT has the geneological record of the history of man, complete. Ussher has it calculated at about six milleniums. The animals and man were all created in day five of creation.
From day one of creation through day four, there was, Biblically, no Solar System bodies in place which would determine the 24 hour day. It is not stated how long day four was before the Solar System was complete with our Sun star. Thus the light before day four had to be from Jehovah, god's Holy Spirit whom he sends forth throughout the Undiverse to do his work.
Genesis 1:1 states that it was the Holy Spirit that moved upon the waters, did the separating etc. It had to be that entity of power and light that provided the exact amount of light and heat (a lot) to evaporate enough mirky earth surface waters up to form the earth's pre-flood canopy atmosphere, thus, effecting the perfect climate for planet earth for lush vegetation, etc. The continents and relatively shallow oceans were formed/separated.
On day three, the plants were created, having the perfect environ to sprout and propagate.
On day four the Solar System was created, effecting the 24 hour day.
Conclusion: Biblically, the age of the earth is unknown, but certainly older than man-kind and the animal kingdom.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-13-2012 9:06 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-13-2012 11:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 84 (662264)
05-14-2012 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Minnemooseus
05-13-2012 11:30 PM


Re: A restart of sorts?
Moose writes:
Buz, the animal kingdom goes back to at least the beginning of the Cambrian. The scientific consensus is that is 550 million years ago. You put that at circa 6000 years ago. You are calling all the Earth's rocks from the beginning of the Cambrian to the present to be circa 6000 years or less old. That is Young Earthism.
Which is addressed in Message 73.
quote:
To elaborate, I have alluded in one of my messages about evolution problems of circularly dating fossils by strata and vise versa so as to avoid problems with each.
Dating igneous strata so as to date fossils in sedimentary strata might be an example of this. Whether igneous strata was deposited early or lately, nevertheless the material is old/early.
How do instruments distinguish age of material from age deposited. Put another way, doesn't the age of the fossil in the sedimentary strata play a role in dating the time the igneous was deposited, being the instrument would be unable, in itself, to date the old material making up the igneous strata deposited?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-13-2012 11:30 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 82 of 84 (668414)
07-20-2012 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Minnemooseus
07-17-2012 4:04 AM


Re: The length of those first few creation days
Moose writes:
The length of days 1-4 were the same as days 5-7. Morning and evening. Why should we think that day 5 comes along and God decides "I'm going to start making the days much shorter"?
Moose, my position has always been that there were times of darkness and times of light before day five after God completed the creation of the sun, moon etc. It's that after day four the length of them became 24 hours. Likely those stars created on day four were the bodies of our solar system that related to planet earth and not the entire cosmos of the Universe.
The reason that God waited until day four to effect a 24 hour day is that all that was created before day five needed various time lengths so as to get the earth and it's atmosphere suitable for survival of all creatures which were created on days five and six after the plants and all were in place.
It was all well planned out by God. Mankind became the last to be created after all was there for him, including the animals which he was to name and have power over to use for whatever purpose he chose.
This included all plant life which was created on day three before creation of the sun and moon, etc.
How long times of darkness and light, i.e evenings and mornings were before day five would be unknown. Some could have been great lengths of time.
It would have taken far more heat to evaporate the water up out of the watery surface of the cold dark planet to create earth's atmosphere than 24 hour sun days would have afforded.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-17-2012 4:04 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2012 1:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024