quote:
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quicksink:
maybe some enlightened one (the all-faithful creationist) could tell us how many species were on the ark, and explain their reasoning...
John Paul:
You do realize there is a book published that answers your questions. It is called Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe.
He puts the total number of ‘invited’ organisms at 15, 754. 7,428 mammals; 4,602 birds and 3,724 reptiles (including dinosaurs). From what the book states the Hebrew terminology in the Genesis account rules out invertebrates having been taken on the Ark. It goes on to say the same holds true for marine and amphibious vertebrates.
quicksink:
sorry, but that is ridiculous. after the flood, an astonishing rate of evolution would have been required to bring the world to the ecological diversity of today.
John Paul:
Thinking that life can arise from non-life via purely natural processes is ridiculous too. But that isn’t stopping people from looking. Also you must remember that all the niches would be wide open and the Creation account does NOT rely on copying errors (i.e. point mutations) to drive the evolutionary process. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with Dr. Lee Spetner’s book Not By Chance.
So where is your indisputable evidence that life could not have arisen from inanimate matter?
Do you even possess an understanding of this process?
quote:
He talks about the bigger animals taken aboard as juveniles, dwarf species and even as eggs.
quicksink:
contradiction alert!
you said that animals migrated to the ark... eggs did too? and juveniles would take too long to reproduce once off the ark- most species would have to wait in turkey for a while.
John Paul:
What contradiction? Did I say the animals that migrated were the same animals that got on board the Ark? I also stated that Noah could have hired people to collect the animals.
Where in the Bible does it state that animals that migrated to the ship were no boarded?
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quicksink:
then they can tell us how the carnivores were fed
John Paul:
How do people feed their cats & dogs? How are the carnivores fed in a zoo? Could be close to the same way that is done.
quicksink:
with processed meat- not sure they had that during the bronze age.
John Paul:
If you are not sure what Noah had to work with how do you know it couldn’t be done?
Give me proof that noah, living in the bronze age, possessed the tools to mechanically process meat and other foods
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quicksink:
how herbivores were fed (man that's a lot of food)
John Paul:
Ever see how cows, pigs and horses are fed? How are herbivores fed in a zoo? Could be pretty much the same way.
quicksink:
they're fed with hay and other vegetables. These things would have to be on the ship, and that takes a lot of room, not to mention collection.
John Paul:
As shown in the numbers I provided there was plenty of space for the animals, food, water , with space to spare.
Why don’t you give us the numbers that would explain the points brought up by schrafinator in a few posts above (in a number of posts) or did those creationist saints not provide any?
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quicksink:
how the boat stayed afloat in waters that could have overturned cruisse ships
John Paul:
Um, it wasn’t a boat. It was a barge shaped Ark. Flat bottomed and rectangular in shape. According to the study that was done in 1994 by Hong et al. and published in Creation Ex Nihlo Technical Journal 8(1): 26-36, the Ark would not flip and was very seaworthy.
quicksink:
ok- could you prove to me that this ark is more stable than a cruise ship?
John Paul:
Hong et al. did exactly that in their study.
Tell me how- this forum is for debating the facts- give them to me.
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quicksink:
and how insects, like the fig wasp, that live for 3 days and require the fig fruit of the fig tree to reproduce, survived
John Paul:
Please show us the scientific evidence that the fig wasp existed as such before the Flood. Why can’t today’s fig wasp be a descendant of the wasps that survived the Flood? It’s a fig wasp now because it filled that niche that was opened by the Flood and resulting landscape changes.
quicksink:
the fig wasp has been found fossilized, although i'm not goiong to go any further in playing your reference game.
John Paul:
And that means what? Are you saying a fig wasp couldn’t fossilize in the time between the Flood and when it was found?
Really? Give me the evidence to suggest that rapid fossilization could have occurred under natural conditions. If this were possible, then we would see the fossils of humans (all those humans that were buried outside a coffin) and other modern mammals- we don’t. but perhaps you have new evidence of the contrary?
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quicksink:
the fig wasp has special adaptations enabling it to lay eggs in the fig fruit. these adaptations would have taken many thousands of years to develop.
John Paul:
Peer-reviewed reference for that claim please (that the adaptations would take thousands of years to develop).
Is that your best response? Demand evidence
Do some research- there are thousands of articles on the mutual relationship between fig fruits and fig wasps. If you took the time to do a little searching, you’d learn how long this relationship would need to develop there’s a hole in the fig for the wasp to pass through, for god’s sake.
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quicksink:
and the flood occured roughly 4500 years ago.
John Paul:
What if the Flood occurred 9,000 years ago? What is your reference to the Flood occurring roughly 4500 years ago?
Hundreds of creationists and creationist sites. If you’d like me to direct you to one of these sites, I will, but for now I’m in a hurry.
And what evidence do you have to suggest that the flood occurred this long ago- geological findings, archaeological digs, biblical passages, dating data?
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quicksink:
how insects like fruit flies and mosquitos, that reproduce unimaginably quickly, were kept from being a monstrous pest
John Paul:
From the correct reading of Scripture, insects were not invited guests. IOW, they weren’t necessarily on the Ark.
quicksink:
be careful. you're venturing into rough waters-
a) insects would not have suvived the flood
John Paul:
Please provide the peer-reviewed article that would substantiate that claim.
The burden of proof does not rest on me. You prove that this is possible, then we can continue.
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quicksink:
b) many insects, like the dragon fly, live for less than a day. Mating would have been impossible on the high seas, and most insects would have quickly gone extinct.
John Paul:
Perhaps many did go extinct. Please provide the peer-reviewed reference that shows mating would be impossible on the high seas.
Again- this resonse proves the feeblness of your rebuttles. The best you can do is demand a reference.
Prove to me that it is possible. Give me some facts
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quicksink:
how Noah was able to repopulate the entire planet in 300 years
John Paul:
You do realize the exact date of the Flood is not etched in stone.
quicksink:
you're right- it's etched in the bible. most creationists put the flood at about 4300-4600 years ago, during the height of the americas, egyptians, and chinese. right there you run into troubles.
John Paul:
Please reference the Bible chapter and verse that gives us the date of the Flood. Most Creationists I talk with don’t put the Flood at about 4300-4600 years ago. Also has it ever occurred to you that the alleged Creationists who posit that time period for the Flood could be wrong?
Wrong based on what findings? What would suggest that a flood occurred 9000 years ago? Can you direct me to a creationist site that asserts this claim? C’mon, now. Produce something of scientific value, not worthless speculation.
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quicksink:
how he was able to restore all cultures to their pre-flood state
John Paul:
What’s your evidence for that?
quicksink:
for example- the pyramids were built before the flood (please don't play your refernce card again!). i will give you a reference if you like.
John Paul:
Obviously they were built after the Flood. Or can you give us an absolute for certain date of the Flood? If not you have nothing to reference it against.
Once again, I dare you to give me evidence that your creationist model is correct.
Ps- 9000 years ago, all civilizations were just beginning to emerge. Building an ark back then would have been impossible, unless you have evidence of the contrary.
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quicksink:
the pyramids would not have survived the flood. they would have been eroded and or covered in sediment.
John Paul:
I agree and that is why I infer they were built after the Flood.
Fine- now where’s that peer-reviewed paper to back it up?
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quicksink:
how this small population was able to rebuild all cities
John Paul:
Evidence of that also.
quicksink:
come on. noah and his ancestors would have had to to live in cities. they would have had to rebuild them all over the world.
John Paul:
Eventually yes. And this is part of the evidence that leads me to infer the Flood occurred more than 4600 years ago. BTW no one has to live in cities.
You seem to be changing theories when it suits you I have never met a creationist (out of the hundreds that I’ve met) that believes the flood occurred 9000 years ago- starating to get sticky, aren’t we?
[QUOTE]
quicksink:
how noah and other biblical figures were able to live for 100s of yearsa, despite the finding of the contrary after the examination of mummies
So your best answer is good genes, eh? That’s your best response?
I don’t see evidence- I don’t see 600 year old people around today- and I don’t see you proving anything.
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quicksink:
how noah was able to collect all the animals
John Paul:
Who says he did? The animals could have migrated to Noah’s place and/ or Noah could have hired other people to collect them.
quicksink:
please don't tell me that god commanded all animals to the ark.
John Paul:
Why do you have a problem with that?
quicksink:
please. now we're talking about creationist MAGIC.
John Paul:
David Blaine does magic. Somehow I get the feeling that God doesn’t.
David blaine uses illusions to make it appear that he is doing magic- god defies the laws of physics.
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quicksink:
how would sloths get to th ark? they can only climb effectively in trees....... how would they cross deserts, not to mention bub-arctic wastelands?
John Paul:
What if they lived in the area the Ark was being built? Remember there was only one land mass before the Flood
Sorry, I don’t recall any evidence of that- show me that it is feasable for the continents to split in 6000-10000 years, or even in a thousand years. If this were true, tectonic activity would be so intense, we would be experiencing earth-quakes of indescribable magnitude every few weeks. And we would see the himilayas growing by a foot or more a year. We see one inch of growth a year.
And maybe you could bring up a biblical reference that indicatates a single super-continent I haven’t seen any of those passages.
Once again, you’re throwing unbased claims at me. You obviously have little or no knowledge of what you’re implying.
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quicksink:
penguins would have died on the way to the ark...
John Paul:
Peer-reviewed reference please.
[roll eyes] here we go again.
It doesn’t take a masters in zoology to know that penguins cannot tolerate intense heat. Now the biblical stories take place in the mid-east that would make us believe that the penguins would have to migrate to the desert- or noah would have to sail to antarctica.
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quicksink:
and how many men would noah have to hire? how many boats would they have to build? where would they go? and why would these men decide to do an excrutiatingly difficult job when they're about to die?
John Paul:
Maybe they didn’t believe they were about to die. They would go where Noah directed them and I don’t know how many people or if they would even require boats for their chore.
Now wait- where does it mention in the Bible that he hired men to sail the seas to find him animals that they had no knowledge of in those days?
Another example of rhetoric.
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quicksink:
how all the animals were able to move from turkey to australia, the americas, etc. without food (all vegetation would have been wiped out during the flood, and would have taken many years to regrow)...
John Paul:
Please provide the scientific evidence that it would take years to re-grow the vegetation. Are you telling me that when farm land gets flooded it’s years until anything grows there?
The most likely scenario for the distribution of the fauna after the Flood was a planned distribution carried out by Noah’s descendants. As in put the animals on big boats and take them to their destination.
quicksink:
plants cannot grow in even slightly salty soil.
John Paul:
The salinity of the oceans today could be a result of the Flood and the oceans of Noah’s time weren’t as salty.
What proof do you have that there is no natural mechanism that removes salt from the ocean?
Your response confirms my belief that you have not an inkling of knowledge in the scientific field. If you had taken the time to research the issue, you would find that salt is constantly being taken from the ocean- here is a site that addresses your issue directly
http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/salt.htmtake the time to look through it, and stop making your very ignorant claims.
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quicksink:
and it says that noah delivered all the animals around the planet where? this would have etaken an eternity!
John Paul:
I said Noah’s descendants and why do you think this would have taken an eternity? All that would be required is to get that menagerie to the land mass and let them wander and fill the available niches.
I assume that you are implying that there was a single land mass in this time, that has now split. You saw my previous post, I am sure.
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quicksink:
how fish, most who cannot tolerate even the slightest change is salinity, survived
how marine mammals survived
John Paul:
I see. You are imposing what we observe today onto what existed in Noah’s day.
quicksink:
uh- yes?
but maybe you could provide scientific evidence that fish could tolerate variations in salinity in noah's day (yeah right!!)
John Paul:
The book covers it.
So first you claim that in the day of the flood, fish could tolerate these changes, and then, when that is destroyed, you retreat to your book.
Tell ya what- find me some evidence on the net, or quote this sacred book of yours.
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quicksink:
how coral survived (coral core measuring goes well beyond the estimated time of the flood, about 4000 years ago)
John Paul:
First you have to realize there isn’t a set date for the Flood.
quicksink:
wrong creationists put it about 4,300 to 4,600 years ago-
John Paul:
I’m a Creationist and I don’t put the Flood about 4300-4600 years ago.
quicksink:
but if you want to make the flood agree with the coral, then you can put the flood 40000 years ago when humans were barely tools.
first you should realize how old that coral is- i've done my homework.
John Paul:
Yup, sure you have. You’ve done so much homework you didn’t know a fully referenced and comprehensive book existed on the Flood of Noah’s day. You also think all Creationists e Christians. I would say you haven’t done enough homework.
Here’s the problem- God Created the Earth as a mature planet capable of supporting life. Adam, at his Creation was allegedly an adult, yet he was just seconds old! The same could be with coral- yup a mature Creation.
Do you know what a coral core is?
Judging by your posts, you don’t. your first claim was that the earth is old enough to accommodate coral cores. Tehn once you realized that coral cores are 40000 years old, you claimed that god created them mature
Well, you could believe that. Or you could believe that coral cores are one of many pieces of evidence that indicate the earth is older than the bible says.
Give your answer to a scientist, and he’d laugh at your arrogance. You claim creationism is science, and yet you give this wild and completely unscientific claim.
And BTW- are you familiar with the concept of Occam’s Razor?
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quicksink:
how the americans and chinese and egyptians, not to mention their fabulous structures, survived...
John Paul:
What structures and how do you know they were built before the Flood?[quote]
the mayan and egyptian pyramids, the buildings of the chinese dynasty, and, from the site
http://www.kidport.com/RefLib/WorldGeography/Greece/Greece.htm" Greece is one of the oldest civilizations, dating back over 5000 years. "
these buildings were dated with a number of methods.
1. carbon dating
2. tree-ring dating
3. ancient records (geneolgy, refernces to lunar eclipses and the like)
all of these corroborate one another. basically, they give roughly the same day.
quote:
quicksink:
there are more... maybe you could quote me and then answer each question one by one... answer each one... and perhaps you could give a link or two to back up your claims...
John Paul:
The pyramids were dated by tree rings? Wow. How was that done? I’ve climbed Khufu (that’s the biggest of the 3 on the Giza plateau). and didn’t see any trees around. Also the oldest tree is 4400-4600 years old.
Two words- unadulterated arrogance. Tree-ring dating is used to determine the date of such things as floods and fires, which may or may not have been recorded by ancient civilizations.
And you haven’t addressed the other dating methods either.
quote:
John Paul:
Actually all you have to do is read the book I mentioned earlier. Then if you have issues with it at least we will have something to debate.
Here are some of the numbers (from the book) of the Ark’s contents:
Empty Ark- 4,000 tons (all the pens, support beams, etc.); biomass at the start of the Flood- 111 tons; biomass at the end of the Flood- 411 tons; food at the start of the Flood- 2,500 tons; water at the start of the Flood- 4,070 tons. According to the study by Hong et al., the spare mass would be 6,000 tons.
One more thing- I am neither a Christian nor a fundamentalist, yet I am a Creationist. As a matter of fact I know many Muslims, Jewish people, Hindus and Buddhists that are also Creationists. That shoots down one of your claims in another thread (that Creationists were Christians).
quicksink:
so wait, you believe that the bible, which is a christian book, is a historical reference.
John Paul:
First the Genesis account is in the Old Testament which is the Torah for Judaism. Also The split in Muslim/ Judeo-Christian beliefs occurs after Abraham, so the Genesis account is OK for Muslims too. Also the Bible is a collection of books. If you had done your homework you would have known that.
But yes, I believe the books in the Bible that were meant to be historical accounts are just that.
quicksink:
yet you are not a christian. i believe a non-christian creationist is an oxymoron.
John Paul:
It doesn’t matter to me what you believe, I know better.
quicksink:
and give me some names of non-christian creationists.
John Paul:
Lee Spetner- Jewish and author of Not By Chance; Harun Yahya is a prominent Turkish Muslim author, who has penned more than 150 books over the last two decades. His main focus has been the refutation of Darwinism and materialism, two modern myths which are imposed to conceal the fact of Creation, a truth both revealed in the Bible and the Koran. Mr. Yahya believes that Christians and Muslims should cooperate in many matters, including the unveiling of the truth about origins. His works have inspired the studies of the unofficial Turkish Science Research Foundation (SRF), to which Science magazine (in its issue of 18 May 2001) refers as one of the world’s strongest anti-evolution movements outside of North America. Harun Yahya lives in Istanbul, Turkey. (taken from the True Origins website).
OK there are two names and you can add mine to that list. If you want more you are going to have to do the research. But it should be obvious that the Genesis account is accepted by Jewish people, Muslims and Christians.
I also work with Hindus and Buddhists who believe the evidence points to a Special Creation. Their disagreement comes with the who or what Created.
Either you are going to read the book I mentioned or not. You are not the first person to have these questions and a Creationist has taken the time to answer them. The choice is yours, remain ignorant or do some research.
and all these people believe in jesus, or are they defending their own holy books, which would, by the way, contradict the bible.
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