An Argument For Being Born Gay

It seems to me that he defends positions by asking hard questions of people and then doggedly insisting that they answer those questions rather than letting them change the subject or ignore the points he's raised. That doesn't seem particularly "faggy" to me. Of course, since you seem to be using the term "faggy" in a way that has nothing to do with sexuality, cigarettes or starting a fire, I guess I haven't a clue what you mean.

He spins your position into a more ridiculous one (that's easier to defeat), refuses to accept that he's misunderstood you (because he knows what you meant better that you yourself know what you meant), and demands that you stick to the strawman he's created (including endless repetition). He relies on using the person instead of arguing the position. "An annoying meddler".

Perhaps sometimes.Sometimes that simply called making a reductio ad absurdum argument. Sometimes that's simply showing the ridiculousness that isn't always readily apparent in a position at first blush. Hmmmm, never heard that use of "faggy" before. You know, it sounds to me like you just threw out the first pejorative you could think of, one that was on your mind because of the thread topic, and didn't bother to think of some other term that might accurately convey the message you were trying to get across.

Yeah, I get that. The problem is when reducing the argument into absurdity takes priority over actually understanding what the person is saying. I stole it from Mod:

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You even took 'stop being a fag about it' not to mean 'stop being an annoying meddler' but to mean 'stop doing things that gay people do about the affair' and ranted about onifre's metaphorical attempt to anally rape you before impugning him for homophobia.

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Message 200

That's a danger. But at the same time, sometimes that's necessary to try to get the person to actually see the absurdity in their position. I'm sure you'll agree that we get more than our fair share of numbskulls with stupid ideas that they haven't fully thought out. And it appears that he got it from onifre. So my original point still stands, but it's perhaps more aptly directed to him.

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But we can and do discuss how faggy you act without thinking about your dick.

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No, you can't. And I don't mean that as a response to the pathetic claim that "fag" doesn't mean, you know, "fag," but rather to the fact that every single time you decide to go there, it's to specifically talk about my sexuality. That necessarily means you're talking about my dick.You really don't remember, do you? Onifre called me a douche, you egged him on, and suddenly the two of you are wallowing in my sexuality.It's really sad. You have nothing better to do but to rag on me (really? I'm that much of a factor in your life?) and the only thing you can think of to say is that I'm gay. And you wonder why I keep pointing out how fixated you are on my dick?Prove me wrong. Let's see if you can go a year without making any comments about my sexuality.

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I've actually never thought about your dick.

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Then why do you keep bringing it up? Why do you keep jumping in when onifre brings it up? If you truly haven't thought about it, why do you seem unable to stop yourself from talking about it?Prove me wrong. Let's see if you can go six months without talking about my sexuality.

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Its more about how whiny and bitchy you'd be in person, like: there's now way he'd act like this in public.

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Like a "fag," right? And we're back to the comments about my sexuality again.

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You're just another member of the community, and we talk about people sometimes. Your outstanding quality just turns out to be how faggy you act.

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See...can't even go two sentences without bringing it up. Now, it's sad that you feel the need to whine about someone you don't even know, but to have to resort to calling him gay as your only retort is, well, it's pitiful.

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Its not about the positions you defend, but *how* you defend positions in general.

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Which is what, precisely? "Like a fag," right? And we're suddenly back to my sexuality again.I seriously doubt you can do it. You honestly can't relate to me except through your vision of my sexuality. Every time you respond, you immediately go to thoughts of my dick. You certainly can't explain your reaction without that crutch or you would have done so by now.So prove me wrong. Can you simply stop talking about it? I can guarantee that if you don't talk about my dick, I won't talk about it, either. This all goes away when you stop it. Or is that simply too much to ask?

I'm truly enjoying all your different versions of describing butt sex. This has been totally worth it just for that. Because you acted like a drama queen and YOU YOURSELF brought up the question of your sexuality:

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I mean really...how many years have y'all been sniggering? Is there a reason why you can't seem to stop speculating about where it is I put my penis?
  —Rrhain

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You usually bring it up. You like to make it the center of the topic then get all self-righeous about it like you're the only one who defends gay people. It does make you a little less. But worry not, I considered you a power bottom, and that's as tough as they come. Actually it's a lot of peoples joke, from South Park to stand up comics. But I'm sure AE doesn't mind me using it for fun to shit on a Peter Pan-looking, liberal, power bottom like you.- Oni

onifre responds to me:

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Then why is it that in a thread that had nothing to do with me and which I wasn't participating in, you brought up my sex life?

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Because you acted like a drama queen

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Huh? How could I have been acting like anything in a thread I wasn't participating in? It was you and Catholic Scientist, talking amongst yourselves. It was post #10 in the thread. Nobody had time to say anything about anything and I hadn't posted anything in that thread and never did. And yet, you decided to call me a douche (am I that important in your life that you have to bring me up to others) and when CS egged you on, you immediately called me gay.So please, onifre, do tell how I made you do it. Tell us how my powers are so great that you were compelled to react to a post I didn't make.

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and YOU YOURSELF brought up the question of your sexuality:

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Huh? Have you forgotten Phat's post? Message 30: You will note that when I asked him what it was that was being explained, I didn't bring up my sexuality but instead gave him an opportunity to backpedal (Message 40) But instead of backing off his attempt to insult me by saying I'm gay, he doubles down (Message 41): And then you come in to make it official (Message 43): So do please tell us how I was the one who brought it up, not Phat.

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You usually bring it up.

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Then you will have no trouble finding but a single instance where I have. It'll be easy for you. Just go through all your posts where you talk to me. Eventually you start trolling for my dick. Read them and tell me when I have ever been the one to bring up my sexuality.

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You like to make it the center of the topic then get all self-righeous about it like you're the only one who defends gay people.

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Huh? Where have I ever said or implied anything of the sort? Be specific. Again, this should be easy for you. Just go through your posts where you talk to me. You eventually start salivating over my dick. Find where I have ever said I'm the only one.You do recall that I got banned for defending Dan Carroll for being banned for defending berberry, yes? I have thrown that back in Mod's face whenever he starts down the road of three wrongs making a right again. So if I can remember the others who are pro-gay, why can't you?Could it be because I'm the only one you want to fuck you?

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It does make you a little less.

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See, that's why you keep getting rejected: You're still ashamed of yourself. The stink of self-hatred is so thick that it wouldn't be an act of mercy to show you the kindness of human contact the way you so desperately desire. You'd be so self-loathing when it was over, if not halfway through, that no self-respecting person would ever respond. Nobody wants to hear you cry in self-pity in the middle of a screw.Someday, when you finally learn that your feelings are OK to have, you may finally find someone willing to touch you. But it'll never happen until you learn to let go of your obsession with my dick.Can you do that?

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Actually it's a lot of peoples joke

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I see...you can't even steal original material. See, I'm an actor. I have an excuse. All of my lines are written by somebody else. You're the one who's supposed to be coming up with the new stuff. But not only can't you do that, you can't even steal reasonably fresh content.Ah well. Not everybody's cut out to be a comic. You certainly aren't connected to funny as our last foray showed. Have you figured why the joke was comedy rather than cruelty yet?

When I said "This explains a lot" I was referring to my own sexual feelings...not yours. Granted I did later say that "we all knew you were gay" so I still owe you an apology for that one. When I asked "Not sure how to tell Rrhain or what..." I was trying to be funny and secretive (as to my own sexuality) at the same time...but this whole thing apparently backfired. Thus, I'm not gonna say anything more...and offer you an overdue apology.

Could the participants who are posting messages more out of emotion maybe take a step back and examine their approach? The puzzle is how to capture your passion in a manner that captivates and convinces and even evokes empathy rather than alienates.

Absolutely we can. I guess this is your hang-up: you can't accept that people can talk about something being gay without talking about sexual acts.If a dude skips into the room in a tutu with limp wrists and proclaims with a lisp how much he loves Lady Gaga, then somebody could say 'that's gay' or 'what a fag' without considering sex at all. The guy might even be heterosexual and that still wouldn't matter.So you see, this is a chance for you to learn something about the people you oppose, and to ge a chance to realize how they think and what's really going on, but instead you'd rather poison the well and insist that its all about sex. And you're not going to be able to let that go. But really, its not. They're more to considering something gay than the specifics of sexuality.And there could actually be a somewhat interesting topic here, with the whole outrage against the phrase "That's gay", and the way that the people who use it think they're being misunderstood. Your position's already a non-sequitor (that mentioning that something is gay necessitates thinking about sex), so there's no need for me to prove it wrong and, besides, that's not the only way I could prove you wrong. The fact that something can be considered gay or faggy without having anything to do with sex or sexuality proves you wrong. So even when I don't mention sexuality, you're gonna bring it back to sexuality again yourself. Now you've got circular reasoning too. Has it ever occured to you that you could be the one who alwayws brings up sex? I already did in Message 62, so there, you've been proven wrong. And now your behaving exactly how I described.

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ABE: Are you talking about the Gender and Humor thread? Cause I just reread my posts there and its not like your describing. In fact, my first reply to you in that thread didn't mention anything about sexuality at all, so what you claim I cannot do I alread did.Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

For what its worth:When I read that post of yours I though: "yeah, that does explain a lot about how young gay people could know they're gay without knowing about sex."I actually thought that Rrhain had made a good post that was informative. It wasn't until he brought it up as some sort of gay-bashing that I saw how it could have been read as:"Oh, that explains a lot (because you're gay)".So don't feel bad... from the sideline it didn't seem wrong.

CS has beaten me to it - but to add, it was obvious to me that you were refering to yourself and not Rrhain. I was rather taken aback at Rrhain's reply to you, and at the ensuing shit-storm.

Hey OniI would really advise against taking up Rrhain's kind offer. I think the sexual tension and level of aggression between you two would result in a very uncomfortable (aka savage pounding) experience for an arse virgin such as yourself.I, on the other hand, promise to be gentle and sensitive to your first-timer needs.PM me......

Catholic Scientist responds to me:

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Absolutely we can.

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You misunderstand. Are there people who can talk about being gay without referring to sex? Of course. Being gay is more than just sexual activity, so of course "we" can discuss being gay without referring to sex.But what I said was, "No, you can't."And you, the singular "you," meaning you, specifically, can't.Why? Because every time you bring it up, you aren't referring to my emotional attraction. You're referring to my sexual attraction.And let's not pretend that calling something "gay" is just an innocent synonym for "uncool." Even you don't believe that.

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And you're not going to be able to let that go.

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This all ends when you learn to stop talking about my sex life.Can you do that? Can you learn to stop talking about my sex life?

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But really, its not.

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But with you, it always is. You never call me "gay" with regard to any other intent except to denigrate me by your perceived sexual orientation. Again, the problem isn't that "we" can talk about the other aspects of being gay that go beyond sexual activity.It's that you can't.

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They're more to considering something gay than the specifics of sexuality.

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Which, in the context of denigrating something as "gay," necessarily refers to sexual activity. Nobody insults someone as "gay" for having an emotional connection to people of the same sex. No, the slam is based specifically and solely upon the sexual act.

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And there could actually be a somewhat interesting topic here, with the whole outrage against the phrase "That's gay", and the way that the people who use it think they're being misunderstood.

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That's for another thread. The challenge for you will be to see if you can handle not referring to sex.

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The fact that something can be considered gay or faggy without having anything to do with sex or sexuality proves you wrong.

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Incorrect. Just because it can be done doesn't mean you have done. It is quite possible to open the front door to my house. You have never done so.The problem is not that it is impossible to discuss what it means to be gay without talking about sex. There's more to sexual orientation than sex. No, the problem is that you can't seem to avoid sex when calling something "gay." You never reference the emotional or psychological aspects of sexual orientation. It's always a reference to sex.So prove me wrong: Stop talking about my sex life and we'll see if I can stop myself from mentioning it, too.

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So even when I don't mention sexuality, you're gonna bring it back to sexuality again yourself.

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No, you did that yourself. "Whiny and bitchy" have no connection to being gay. It is simply a stereotype created by homophobes who can't handle the idea of two men having sex. It certainly isn't an issue of love or affiliation, camraderie, and interpersonal connection. It's about squealing "EWWW!" at the thought of two men kissing.If you had meant, "whiny and bitchy," that's what you and onifre would have said when hou two got together to talk about me in a thread that wasn't about me and I wasn't participating in. But that isn't what you said and it isn't what you were implying. Instead, you were talking about my sex life.

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Now you've got circular reasoning too. Has it ever occured to you that you could be the one who alwayws brings up sex?

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Same challenge to you: Prove it. It should be easy to do. Just go through any thread where you respond to me. You eventually start talking about my sex life. Surely you should be able to tell who is the first one to bring it up.And should that be too difficult for you, let's run an experiment: You don't post anything that even hints at my sex life and we'll see how long I can go before bringing it up.Can you do that? Can you just not talk about it?

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I already did in Message 62, so there, you've been proven wrong. And now your behaving exactly how I described.

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You mean your pathetic attempt to explain this (Message 60)? Yeah, right...you're not talking about my sexuality. Even you don't believe that. Oh, no doubt you'll try to claim that "faggy" is just an innocent synonym for "uncool" and that you had absolutely no idea that it was a reference to sexuality and that you certainly never intended it that way, but let's not play dumb. You aren't that stupid so please don't pretend that we are. You chose your words with care and deliberateness. There's a reason you said what you said, quite consciously to be able to say, "But I didn't say that," as if we're all a bunch of morons.You were baiting, CS. Just fess up to it.

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Are you talking about the Gender and Humor thread?

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No. That was last year. I already said the thread I'm referring to is from two years ago. Keep looking.After all, if you never bring it up, surely there won't be that much to look through.