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Author Topic:   Evidence for a recent flood
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 256 of 404 (642154)
11-26-2011 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by edge
11-26-2011 12:11 AM


Re: Details, details, details
quote:
The term 'or' is not credible here;...
Why not?
Because it is not a reasonable demand, as is this one:
quote:
... more precise infrmation is already contained in the texts - namely surrounding nations.
How is that more precise than a geographic location down to the minutes/seconds?
Minutes and seconds were not yet in the human mindset. The writings are historically authentic, as also seen in the descriptions of the ancient Egytpian diets and lifestyle: you won't find tomatoes or camels in the text.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by edge, posted 11-26-2011 12:11 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by edge, posted 11-26-2011 5:13 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 257 of 404 (642155)
11-26-2011 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by kbertsche
11-25-2011 11:57 PM


Re: Mt. Ararat
quote:
BTW, I hope everyone here realizes that the biblical account of the Flood never mentions Mount Ararat. It mentions the mountains (plural) of Ararat. I.e. it is speaking of a region, not of a particular mountain.
Do you realise that makes the description even more accurate, because it seems to know there was not one lone mountain but a series?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by kbertsche, posted 11-25-2011 11:57 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by edge, posted 11-26-2011 5:15 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 258 of 404 (642156)
11-26-2011 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by ICANT
11-25-2011 11:27 PM


Re: Lets take the initiative
Of note is the day beginning with night/darkness, aligns with the second verse, where darknessness is listed before the light appearing. This says one of either two things:
1. The darkness predates light and light was an action thereafter. Technically, this makes it correct a day begins with the eve [darkness], not the morning light.
Or
2. Both the darkness and the light appeared simultainiously, namely both were seperated from the underlying voidless much, and both were equally seperated from each other ['And (why and?) He seperated the light from the darkness'].
Off topic, but one can ask if the light in scenario [2] aligns with the big bang. Also, I don't see darkness as the absence of light: the attributes of these have no commonality and differ in kind than degree. I agree more with scenario 2.

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 Message 252 by ICANT, posted 11-25-2011 11:27 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 259 of 404 (642163)
11-26-2011 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 9:33 PM


Re: Details, details, details
IamJ writes:
Panda writes:
I expect it will take a further 50 posts of your bullshit before you finally respond to all the other questions with the same answer.
There has never been confusion of the region's vicinity any place, including in all scholarly appraisals, and the text adequately confirms it.
And yet - 15 more of your bullshit posts and you haven't either supplied a location for Mount Ararat or answered any of Jar's other questions.
Your responses are as pointless and stupid as being asked "What is the time?" and replying with: "My watch is accurate!" and "My watch knows the answer!".
At no point have you even bothered to try and answer the questions.
So - where is Mount Ararat?
If you know where it is, then just point to it on a map.
If you can't point to it on a map - then you don't know where it is.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 9:33 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by IamJoseph, posted 11-26-2011 7:11 AM Panda has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 260 of 404 (642164)
11-26-2011 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Panda
11-26-2011 6:34 AM


Re: Details, details, details
You are exaggerating. I absolutely provided precise and irrefutable historical and geographical proof of the arc's landing location, in a manner which is not open to confusion. To the extent I was asked to provide longtitude and latitudes of an ancient event - in case you were absent from this forum at the time. My summary conclusion is all charges are negated except one called denial.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Panda, posted 11-26-2011 6:34 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Panda, posted 11-26-2011 10:26 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 261 of 404 (642169)
11-26-2011 8:45 AM


IamJoseph's Science Forum Permissions Removed
Hello everyone,
Over the past few months, beginning back in April I think, I have tried to reduce IamJoseph's level of participation by restricting his access to certain threads and forums. It looks like I finally have to admit to myself that this approach will never prove successful. Moderators cannot be everywhere all the time. I was unable to think of any other solution but to remove IamJoseph's permissions in all the science forums.
Because of the recent and somewhat lengthy digression caused by IamJoseph I am bumping the post limit of this thread up to 400.
Edited by Admin, : Shorten title.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by IamJoseph, posted 11-26-2011 5:37 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 262 of 404 (642173)
11-26-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by IamJoseph
11-26-2011 7:11 AM


Re: Details, details, details
Panda writes:
So - where is Mount Ararat?
If you know where it is, then just point to it on a map.
If you can't point to it on a map - then you don't know where it is.
IamJoseph writes:
You are exaggerating. I absolutely provided precise and irrefutable historical and geographical proof of the arc's landing location, in a manner which is not open to confusion. To the extent I was asked to provide longtitude and latitudes of an ancient event - in case you were absent from this forum at the time. My summary conclusion is all charges are negated except one called denial.
*looks for a map location*
*sees only word salad*
*concludes that IamJ doesn't know where Mount Ararat is*

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by IamJoseph, posted 11-26-2011 7:11 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 263 of 404 (642174)
11-26-2011 10:28 AM


looking at the likely reagion's geography
If the Biblical Flood has any actual historical basis, then it would be reasonable to look at the areas where the source might have originated.
There are several possibilities. Recent evidence seems to show that there were human inhabited settlements along the shores of the Black Sea when the damn at the Mediterranean end broke and flooded that area, but that is a long long way from the Armenian Plateau where the mountains of Ararat are located.
The Armenian Plateau is also pretty high averaging over 3000 ft above sea level and is bordered on the east by the Iranian Plateau and on the west by the Anatolian Plateau. The significance here is that both the Anatolian Plateau and Iranian Plateau are significantly lower than the Armenian Plateau and drain into two entirely different bodies of water, the Aegean Sea to the west and the Persian Gulf in the east.
The mountain ranges in the area run generally east to west and so if there was some flood that was high enough to float a boat onto the Armenian Plateau, as the water receded the vessel would have been carried towards either the Aegean or Persian Gulf, away from the Mountains of Ararat.
Another possible location is the area between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. This area has a definite history of severe flooding, but again, problems arise. There are mountain ranges to the north between the Tigris Euphrates valley and drainage is towards the westeast, away from the Armenian Plateau. A severe rainfall that could create a flood deep enough to raise sea level to over 3000 feet would still be flowing west to east in this area carrying any vessel away from the Mountains of Ararat and towards the Persian Gulf.
The problem is that water flows down hill, and even if there was a flood that was deep enough to raise a vessel high enough for it to get to the Mountains of Ararat, the currents would all be away from the high points and so without some motive force sufficient to run against the currents there is just no way to get to the Mountains of Ararat.
Edited by jar, : add emphasis in last paragraph
Edited by jar, : yeast is yeast and vest is vest
Edited by jar, : damn dam
Edited by jar, : close strikeout

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by ICANT, posted 11-26-2011 10:49 AM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 264 of 404 (642175)
11-26-2011 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Coyote
11-25-2011 11:54 PM


Re: Lets take the initiative
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes:
And since you stopped by, what's your take on the date and magnitude of the flood?
I covered the scope of the flood of Noah, in a thread beginning with Message 1, and gave my arguments for a global flood. IAJ and I disagreed for many posts in the thread What the KJV Bible says about the Noah Flood.
As far as the date of the flood of Noah, I really have no date. There are many dates mentioned but there is no way of giving an exact date. IF I have to go out on a limb and give a date I would say between 4,000 years ago and 10,000 years ago and that is about as close as I can narrow it down. And my dates may be wrong.
So it is possible IAJ is correct on the date but he could also be wrong, if he says it took place 4500 years ago.
The text concerning the flood of Noah says the dry land, Earth was covered with water but it does not say when the flood of Noah took place.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Coyote, posted 11-25-2011 11:54 PM Coyote has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 265 of 404 (642176)
11-26-2011 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by jar
11-26-2011 10:28 AM


Re: looking at the likely reagion's geography
Hi jar,
jar writes:
The problem is that water flows down hill, and even if there was a flood that was deep enough to raise a vessel high enough for it to get to the Mountains of Ararat, the currents would all be away from the high points and so without some motive force sufficient to run against the currents there is just no way to get to the Mountains of Ararat.
And if the water was coming from the fountains of the deep at a rate of 20 times the amount of rain fall which way would the water current be flowing?
The waters of the Bay of Fundy rise 55 feet in six hours. So if all the water in the sea was rising at that rate with no recession, which way would the water current flow? Wouldn't it flow towards the highest point on the dry land mass? Just a thought.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 11-26-2011 10:28 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 11-26-2011 11:09 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 269 by Percy, posted 11-26-2011 12:00 PM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 266 of 404 (642177)
11-26-2011 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by ICANT
11-26-2011 10:49 AM


Re: looking at the likely reagion's geography
Down hill.
But then you have no evidence for either the fountains of the deep or the rate that those supposed fountains of the deep flowed.
AbE:
The Fountains of the Deep as some motive force is just plain silly.
Again, look at the geography of the areas where the Biblical Flood supposedly happened.
If the Fountains of the Deep were located on part of that land mass, the flow would still be down hill away from the Mountains of Ararat.
If the Fountains of the Deep were located in the waters, then they would simply be overwhelmed by the run off from the land mass. They might create some local turbulence but could not significantly effect the overall water flow.
There is simply lots of land area to accumulate rainfall, and it all flows downhill.
Edited by jar, : add AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ICANT, posted 11-26-2011 10:49 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by ICANT, posted 11-26-2011 12:19 PM jar has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 404 (642181)
11-26-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 10:20 PM


Re: Mt. Ararat
If a report includes many factual stats it does not mean it is true of being contemporary; it can still be retrospective reporting. But if those stats are mentioned for the first time - the situation alters dramatically.
What factual stats?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:20 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 404 (642182)
11-26-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 10:22 PM


What makes it a fact? Who says Noah's household [domestic animals] and a person by the name Noah, makes it non-factual?
What makes the flood a fact is empirical evidence. As for Noah, that's 4,000 year old hearsay from a single source. You might as well believe in Tiamat because it's found in the Enuma Elish by your rationale.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by IamJoseph, posted 11-25-2011 10:22 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 269 of 404 (642186)
11-26-2011 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by ICANT
11-26-2011 10:49 AM


Re: looking at the likely reagion's geography
ICANT writes:
And if the water was coming from the fountains of the deep at a rate of 20 times the amount of rain fall which way would the water current be flowing?
I thought the rain and the flow from the fountains of the deep went on for only 40 days and 40 nights, and that it was another half year after that before the ark ran aground on Mount Ararat. During that half year when there was no longer constant rain nor flow from the fountains of the deep the ark could have drifted a considerable distance at the mercy of random currents and the prevailing winds. The ark could have ended up anywhere, so if you believe it ended up on Mount Ararat then that's as good a place as any.
But the ark isn't the topic. The topic is evidence for a geologically very recent global flood.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ICANT, posted 11-26-2011 10:49 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ICANT, posted 11-26-2011 12:45 PM Percy has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 404 (642187)
11-26-2011 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by IamJoseph
11-25-2011 10:30 PM


Re: Lets take the initiative
We have no older names than Adam
Nonsense, and I've proven otherwise. The Enuma Elish predates ANY book of the bible, and it lists names (pronouns) that exceed the time given to Adam. That completely shatters your myth about Adam being the first name ever listed in writing.
factual landmarks affirm historical credibility; your chinese writings does not show the same.
It doesn't need landmarks to prove that it's:
1. Writing
2. Oldest known writing
Your litmus test is completely and irrevocably skewed.
Do you understand that first is not one, but many others preceding it? Analogy: is the sprinter who comes first the first or one of many sprinters? Genesis is astutely correct - and its no typo! Of note, Genesis goes on to correctly state the following days as SECOND; THIRD; etc. Why so?
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous and irrelevant point you're making. I shouldn't even entertain it, but for your edification I will proceed.
You do understand that this was translated in to English, which doesn't change the fact that they were speaking about the first day. Whether you say Day 1 or the first day, IN ENGLISH, does NOT change the context whatsoever.
Secondly, the point you seem to be dodging is that Moses goes out of his way to explain a 24-hour day for the creation narrative. If these Days were representative of long epochs, why did he go out of his way to detail a calendar day? He uses the terms "night" and "day." Why, if what you allege is true?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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