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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 81 of 270 (641382)
11-18-2011 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by hooah212002
11-18-2011 6:59 PM


ADMIN
how do you report someone for:

name calling

thread jacking

and repeatedly making off topic posts, while admitting to trying to derail a thread.

No, I'm calling you out in hopes that people will stop taking you seriously and stop replying to you as if you actually do what your posts say you do. It's obvious you are an attention seeking child (THAT's name calling) and you think it's cute to glorify criminality.

why don't you just ignore me like I try to ignore you? [rhetorical]

because you are an asshat, and disruptive, if i was that bothersome you would just ignore me, instead of this personal crusade you have against me. I do my best to ignore both of the bad posters from Wisconsin.

(FYI: It ceases to be "playing devils advocate" when you are in opposition to EVERYONE on every post you make.)

FYI: I am agreeing with Modulous in this very thread. Are you blind, or is reading difficult for you?

also there are people on here I almost never disagree with, so as usual you are wrong again.

I may have unintentionally trolled you. my only logical explanation for the rage you have for me personally, but that was not my intent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 11-18-2011 6:59 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 136 of 270 (642410)
11-28-2011 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Modulous
11-18-2011 9:16 PM


Re: fraud as theft
Modulous writes:

I would argue that fraud is a type of theft.
Theft is acquiring something that you are not entitled to, from someone who is - regardless of the method of the acquisition.
Fraud is obtaining something that you are not entitled to, by deception. That is to say, fraud is theft by deception.

I think it could be if you stole everything without paying.
I am not big on entitlements. Is the store entitled to wealth by the deception of price gouging? Is some English breakfast tea worth 2GBP /$3.10 per pound at safeway? Its bulk tea, it aint good, I bet plain Lipton Black is better. I think it could be argued with your definition that the grocer is frauding the public on tea prices.
I think Fraud is part of capitalism. there is a sucker born every minute P.T. Barnum

Theft is the Sprite I drink while I am shopping, and then toss before I get to the checkout.

I don't like victimising people for personal profit

Not a fan of capitalism?

Dogmafood writes:

How many readers would engage in a cash transaction in order to avoid paying the tax? I know I would and I consider myself to be scrupulously honest. Is that theft?

I do all the time. My favorite Indian (south of P.R. China Indian) food restaurant charges $7 for the lunch buffet cash, and $8.50 if you charge or debit it. When I pay cash the guy puts the money in his pocket, instead of the cash register. I cant tell if they do this because they are cheap and dont like the fee to have a debit/charge machine, or if they are skimming off the top, not like I care though the yellow squishy chicken stuff is delicious.

DrJones* writes:

If by fraudulent means you pay $1 for something that is priced at $10 you are stealing $9 from the store.


Not if the cost of the product is $0.50, they are still making a profit, instead of the gouged deceptive (fraud) price of $10. I could say I out frauded a frauder.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 9:16 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


(1)
Message 137 of 270 (642411)
11-28-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
11-20-2011 6:09 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
NoNukes writes:

Traffic offenses make poor examples because they are usually infractions.


What about firearm offenses?

What about things that are legal in one place but not in another? For instance open carry in VA is legal, but not in say MD. When I wade fish the Potomac River I open carry a Glock 34, and keep it loaded with 9mm snake shot, for self defense against some of the venomous herps that live on the river bank. No Part of the water exists in Virginia, Maryland has all of the water rights of the river (except in DC and then DC has the rights). If I am standing in ankle deep (6 inches, 15.24cm) of water on the VA side (south bank), I am open carrying a firearm in Maryland. Can I just hop back and forth in an out of the water and commit a crime 50 times over and over again (and a firearms crime at that)? My guess is no, because its not criminal, though technically against the law.

When I lived in Missouri I had a .357 loaded in the glove box 24/7 (perfectly legal if you are 21, not crazy, and not a felon), and then drive to a family members house in the Peoples Republic of Illinois (where it is against the law to protect yourself), was I supposed to stop in the middle of the interstate (when I crossed the state line) and move my firearm to my trunk in accordance with IL law? Because I never did. LEO has no right to search my vehicle, so why change to the trunk?

Neither of which I would consider criminal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 11-20-2011 6:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 11-28-2011 5:08 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 142 of 270 (642493)
11-29-2011 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by NoNukes
11-28-2011 5:08 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
It should have been clear from my post that it doesn't matter what you or I consider criminal. The state legislature decides what actions are criminal. Unless you act on your disagreement by getting like minded citizens to change the law, then you are a criminal.

nope

Based on your description of your activities, you are an un-indicted criminal. If you really cared about not being a criminal, it would have been simply enough to put your gun in the trunk before you departed for Illinois. I don't expect to hear complaints from you about federal law interfering with states' rights ever again.

i like to protect myself, and since there is no reason to stop me or search me, I am protected from obeying they law by the constitution. what happens in the USA when a law conflicts with the constitution? the law goes.

So much for the fiction that gun advocates obey the law.

gun advocates are the same a free speech advocates, and advocate of the bill of rights and the Constitution. They are called Americans, and I am one of them. I would have though you would have understood this living in such a wonderful state like North Carolina.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 11-28-2011 5:08 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 143 of 270 (642495)
11-29-2011 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Phat
11-28-2011 4:11 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
I never dreamed that capitalism had a seamier side until the past few years, and am now a fan of limited socialism.

it's a dog eat dog world.

sorry to hear you like socialism, "that's a bummer man"

My friend, a staunch Milton Friedman Republican, tells me that I will have to compete and learn new skills in order to hold my own in the new order, and I sadly agree...though I fear that many of my countrymen will try and pick a fight...if only they figure out who it is they are fighting. Once they find out it is themselves, they will wish to high heaven for the good old days!

I always score near Milton on the political tests, but I don't consider myself a republican anymore.

we are fighting ourselves, but I think we always have been, I do not think that much has changed or there ever were "good old days", I just think we are privy to more communication, more data, more information, all the time. I wonder if there is going to be a fight or not, it seems evident, but most of us never had to, and the thought of giving everything up for a chance a something better is a gamble I am sure few would subscribe to anymore. I don't really know.

Perhaps my country stole a lot to get where it was...and now I see that the wealthier people wish to distance the rest of us and leave us competing with a rising hungry world.

not sure what we stole. the wealthy have always been that way.

Would I steal tea? No, I have no right to set my own prices.

I don't steal tea either, I just pay less for it. [j/k]

no seriously I don't steal tea, it was a scenario that I made up so that we could have a discussion about stealing, thanks for not being an ass like some of the other DBs on here. I picked tea over other products because there are posters here from the UK, and when I think of the British I think of tea drinkers. I thought if I choose something common between us, then it would be a topic all could jump in on.

I have no right to set my own prices.

I still believe in the idea of rules, even if they favor others than myself

don't hate the player, hate the game.

ever shop at a farmers market, or an organic farm market (hugely popular with all the yuppies out here)? when it says $0.50 per cabbage, only n00bz pay that price. that is the asking price, they'll totally take $0.40 per cabbage if you by 5 cabbages. It's not a rule as much as it is them trying for a price and seeing how many n00bz will pay that price.

though I should never have to be poor.

depends where you live. poor in the city sucks, poor in the country aint that bad.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 11-28-2011 4:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 11-29-2011 1:09 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 147 of 270 (642530)
11-29-2011 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Modulous
11-29-2011 12:46 PM


Re: profiting as theft
It can be if you stole anything without paying. I've never seen a bank robber try and justify stealing $1,000 by suggesting that he didn't steal all the money in the bank, and if they did I'd think they were wrong, and possibly foolish or insane.

that is different than what a stated. I am still paying for the tea, just at a lower than advertised price.

It is as entitled to set its prices as you are to refuse to pay them.

yes I have refused, and offered another price, and they except it everytime.

For example, if your shop conspires with other businesses to fix the price of tea, meaning there is no point in shifting to a competitor, that would be wrong.

that would be playing the game. all the gasoline (sorry i forget what you call it, but fuel for your automobile) is the same price at every gas station in town. I could call them out on profiteering, but one its hard to prove, and two you will get no where with it.

It would be fraudulent if they charged your credit card for more than the displayed price.

I don't have one of those.

Not a fan of capitalism when it victimises people, no. I can't say I'm endeared to exploitation, either. I'm in favour of a capitalism with regulations intended to minimise the harm it causes. This is because alternatives seem to cause more harm.

I think it always victimizes people, but yeah its the best we got so far.

I have another question (its not a set up):

My roommates GF is a coupon fan. Coupon A, states "save 50% on product X when you buy two", she tries to purchase one, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but it always stops the line, and if the store is really busy then they say ok here is your 50% off on product x, thank you for shopping (move along).

Is that also fraud? if not how is it different from the scenario i described with the tea?

sounds like a decent hustle to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Modulous, posted 11-29-2011 12:46 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Modulous, posted 11-29-2011 4:04 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 149 by Taz, posted 11-29-2011 7:58 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 150 of 270 (642668)
11-30-2011 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Taz
11-29-2011 7:58 PM


Re: profiting as theft
A little side OT question. I haven't been around much lately because of business. I could have sworn you (AE) was this ultra-conservative, anti-gay jesus freak. Have you changed or am I thinking of someone else?

I have many roles. it depends on the thread. I am the Devil's Advocate. Most of the time I play the heel, because it's easier to debate something when you see where the topic is going, but its all for fun, learning, and debating/discussing. I can take either side, but it is not my goal to piss anyone off (some here are very sensitive though).

some people think this means I am a troll, I think I am merely discussing a topic online. I am conservative (though not a NeoCon), and I am do like Jesus, but I am not anti-gay. I would think of my self as more of a libertarian conservative.

I will say this, living on the East Coast in the Washington DC Metro area for 3.5 years has made me a little more left leaning than I was before, but I really just think it has opened me up to new ideas different POVs, and more data.

Artemis Entreri is not my real name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_Entreri


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Taz, posted 11-29-2011 7:58 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 151 of 270 (642669)
11-30-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Modulous
11-29-2011 4:04 PM


Re: profiting as theft
Yes, that might be fraud, if deception is employed. But from the way you describe it, no deception is in play. So it is more properly classed as a con or a crappy scam, rather than fraud.

great more confusing semantics. fraud is different than theft but a type of it, and then there are Cons and Scams which if combined with deception (even though deceptions i part of cons and scams), then becomes a fraud too.

so it depends on the "intent" of the the person with the coupon? If my intent is deception for a better price, then I am committing fraud, but if ignorance is at hand and I merely do not read the fine print, then I am not committing fraud.

Sounds like a petty hustle to me. Really, a discount that you aren't technically entitled to? Not exactly the work of the work of an expert grifter, is it?

Seems no different than getting cheap tea to me.

or driving to another state to purchase cheaper tobacco, or cheaper liquor, or cheaper gasoline.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Modulous, posted 11-29-2011 4:04 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2011 2:18 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 153 of 270 (642715)
11-30-2011 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Modulous
11-30-2011 2:18 PM


Re: profiting as theft
It isn't about your intent, no. It is about your actual actions. If you attempted to deceive the cashier that the coupon applied to single item purchases, that would be fraudulent. If instead you just relied on their making the pragmatic decision to not argue in the given context, it's probably a non-fraudulent scam.

that is the same plan as the cheap tea scam. banking that the cashier either 1. doesn't notice, or 2. doesn't care because the loss of goods is less than $10

I don't think there is any crime involved in purchasing things where they are cheaper, unless you are evading taxes. Here in the UK, we have 'booze runs' where we go to France and buy lots of alcohol since the taxes on alcohol are much lower there. There are limits for how much you are allowed to bring back with you.

that is exactly what i am talking about.

if I bought 20 cartons of cigarettes in KY (because its cheap there), and was caught bringing them into Illinois, I would probably get into trouble. one or two cartons and they aint even going to look. Though I would love to drive to Illinois and buy a couple cases of 9mm (it is about 30% cheaper there).

where do you consider straw purchases?

Say you cross the pond and you want a gun. I go buy one, and then sell it to you in a private sale. private sales are legal here. but my intent to purchase for a private sale to a foreigner (and you kind of look like a pirate) is not. I guess this falls under fraud?

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2011 2:18 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Modulous, posted 12-01-2011 6:24 AM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2011 9:34 AM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 162 of 270 (642774)
12-01-2011 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Modulous
12-01-2011 6:24 AM


Re: profiting as theft
That may be part of it, but since the tea scam specifically utilizes deception, that makes it fraud. Whereas the coupon scam does not involve deception. Yes, the tea scam also plays on cashier apathy, but it also involves deceiving the apathetic cashier.

Ok fair enough. I concede. I feel like this horse is dead, and I just broke my bat on its neck.

I don't know enough about gun laws to tell. I'm not sure that profit was made by deception, in the sense that would be construed as fraud. But maybe your purchase could be considered fraudulent if you claimed it was for personal use or something like that as a means to acquire the weapon.

I never considered profit to be part of it, so I dont know now either.

As for looking like a pirate, it's the glasses isn't it?

LOL. Yep, those glasses are a dead giveaway.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Modulous, posted 12-01-2011 6:24 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 164 of 270 (642776)
12-01-2011 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
12-01-2011 7:07 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
And yes, I can identify with the poor people who steal from my store. They have nothing in life. To them, the store has more than enough...and in fact even figures shoplifting into its bottom line.
I would differentiate some poor mother on welfare who needs zinc ointment for her infant son and is flat broke until payday with some thug hustla who simply wants to boost (steal for a fence) several hundred dollars worth of product in order to put gasoline in his Mercedes, which he also bought with illegal drug money.

That thug hustla is also probably broke, and unemployed as well. BTW I think the only kind of illegal money is counterfeit money.

Life isToo $hort. You gotta get in where you fit in.

Just to let you know, those guys lease those Mercedes, they dont buy them.

Onifre writes:

A thug hustla (aka black guy) shoplifting to pay for the gas in his Mercedes? Really? When does that happen?


I have never heard of it happening either. I have seen people selling their link cards at the gas station for gasoline (http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=30371), but I dont see the criminality in that either.

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-01-2011 7:07 AM Phat has responded

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 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-01-2011 2:29 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


(1)
Message 167 of 270 (642780)
12-01-2011 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
12-01-2011 2:29 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
Phat writes:

Because I've earned my position in life through hard work and a decent, honest family

Being a union laborer in a grocery store? I did that at 16 when I bagged groceries, my first (taxable) job. You became a union grocery store employee though hard work? really? The damn union made me join, even though I only worked for $4.25/hour and worked 10-15 hours a week (for gas money and car insurance), I had to pay the same union fees as the old guy who started working there before I was born, who worked his way up to butcher, and worked overtime every-week, and acted like a boss. I learned about the BS that is a Union before I ever got out of high school.

Phat in post 155 writes:

Then we employees, belonging to a labor union, negotiated our wages with an uncaring corporation who would just as soon pay some noobs $8.00 an hour to do badly what we do well.

Wait a minute.

Phat in post 139 writes:

I grew up privileged. My father came from a poor farm family, joined the navy and helped win World War II, then came home and went into business with my Uncle selling houses. They made a fair profit on each house

So which is it: are you a blue collar hard working union guy, who hates upper middle class trustifarians?
Or
Are you a privileged guy who had well off parents?

Maybe it is just me but your last few posts seem rather contradictory.


This message is a reply to:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 169 of 270 (642784)
12-01-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by onifre
12-01-2011 3:21 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
word.

keepin it real.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by onifre, posted 12-01-2011 3:21 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 171 of 270 (642794)
12-01-2011 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
12-01-2011 5:11 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
There was a time in this once great country when one could work hard and even with no higher education be able to retire comfortably.

when? between 1945 and 1970? yeah that "Time", didn't last very long. I blame the baby boomers, they fucked everything all up, and as a child of the boomers, they made sure they got something, but didn't save much for the rest of us.


That time has passed.

yeah, thanks alot for nothing baby boomers. your parents the "greatest generation" made this place awesome, and in one generation it was back to shitty.


My gripe concerns people who tear the system down. Who are greedy and out only for themselves.

you don't like the baby boomers either, i can tell.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 12-01-2011 5:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 12-01-2011 5:54 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 173 by hooah212002, posted 12-01-2011 6:16 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2364 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 175 of 270 (642800)
12-01-2011 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
12-01-2011 5:54 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
We cant blame all of the baby boomers.

I was born in 1978, I couldn't vote until 1996. by the time I could 1st vote (15 years ago) this place was pretty much fucked up already, and everyone always wants to deflect "its the blacks" or "its the latino immigrants" or "its the republicans". Now it is a scramble for the pieces that are left. Just print more money and bail it out, and let the next generation figure out this mess.

who should we blame?

just the "thug hustlas" and latinos?

maybe it is those who set up the system that has failed?

oh wait I got it...its all the republicans. [LOL]

look in the mirror baby boomers, you have been on watch for the past 25 - 35 years. Has American gotten better or worse in the past 25 - 35 years?

As this topic relates to stealing, how did the boomers steal?(Apart from the wealthier republican ones)

when the truth comes out a deflection back to the topic. LOL.

how did the wealthier republicans steal? It's a bi-partisan government. Always amazing that everyone thinks the rich people are the republicans. Take a look at the top 10 richest people in congress how many are republicans 2 or 3? the republicans aka the rich people are only 20-30% of the richest of the rich, explain that one to me Phat?


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