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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 125 of 270 (641612)
11-20-2011 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
11-20-2011 4:08 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Traffic offenses make poor examples because they are usually infractions. In at least some jurisdictions (for example California), infractions are not considered crimes.

In any event, I don't understand the distinction between criminal and non-criminal behavior being made in this thread. Some crimes carry no implications of moral turpitude, while other wrongs which break no laws whatsoever are things almost anyone would condemn.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 4:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 6:26 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 129 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-20-2011 8:18 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 137 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:05 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 270 (641637)
11-20-2011 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ProtoTypical
11-20-2011 8:18 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Jar keeps insisting, without support beyond an appeal to popularity, that anything illegal is, by definition, criminal.

What if it were true that anything illegal is by definition criminal. Wouldn't that simply change the target for assigning morality. We could agree that actions are criminal without agreeing that all crimes are morally wrong.

FWIW, it's easy to list acts that are illegal but are not crimes.

For example, many civil offenses have no criminal implications whatsoever. For example, patent infringement is illegal, but not a crime. Copyright infringement that doesn't meet certain statutory guidelines is not a crime, yet it is illegal.

Lot's of pretty bad things (but not all) that are the result of ordinary negligence rather than intent or gross negligence are not crimes, but are instead civil offenses.

If we were to determine that stealing a loaf of bread when motivated by hunger is in fact not a crime does this not impact the question of why people the steal?

I find this argument to be silly. Stealing a loaf of bread is either larceny or theft according to the laws of all fifty states. It's a crime regardless of the impact on the victim. If you want to justify the act as not being wrong, you'll need to find some way other than arguing that it is not a crime. Or you can get together with some of your buddies and petition the state legislature to make a change. Your legislature, and not you and your growling stomach, determine what constitutes a crime.

My wife recently told me about a former coworker of hers who was caught in the act of shoplifting a loaf of bread, a pack of bologna and a beer from a grocery store. As she exited the store, she saw the coworker in a distressed state being detained by store personnel.

My wife was able to convince the manager to let the man go by making the case that his act was clearly the act of a hungry man and by agreeing to pay for the meat and bread. But she drew the line at the beer, which she was not willing to pay for.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-20-2011 8:18 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 270 (642425)
11-28-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Artemis Entreri
11-28-2011 3:05 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Neither of which I would consider criminal.

It should have been clear from my post that it doesn't matter what you or I consider criminal. The state legislature decides what actions are criminal. Unless you act on your disagreement by getting like minded citizens to change the law, then you are a criminal.

Based on your description of your activities, you are an un-indicted criminal. If you really cared about not being a criminal, it would have been simply enough to put your gun in the trunk before you departed for Illinois. I don't expect to hear complaints from you about federal law interfering with states' rights ever again.

What's at risk for you is getting convicted of a senseless crime that could cost you the right to carry a firearm for a long time. So much for the fiction that gun advocates obey the law.

Edited by NoNukes, : change "left the house" to departed because the former is stupid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:05 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 12:25 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 270 (642748)
12-01-2011 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by frako
12-01-2011 8:42 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
Well it could be a gypsy except he would not be shoplifting but stealing your copper gutter <--( not sure if its the right word for the thingy that channels rainwater from your roof ). He would then sell the copper to put fuel in his Mercedes and yes he does drive a Mercedes.

Gutter is the right word.

If my gutters were made of copper, I might well be tempted to take down my own gutters down and put some aluminum ones up. Around my area, copper gutters seem to be less common, but people still manage to find other sources of copper to purloin, such as air conditioners and copper plumbing.

I have heard at least one story of a person in the US getting electrocuted in an attempt to steal copper from a neighborhood substation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by frako, posted 12-01-2011 8:42 AM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Rahvin, posted 12-01-2011 2:01 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 270 (642753)
12-01-2011 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Artemis Entreri
11-30-2011 7:51 PM


Re: profiting as theft
Say you cross the pond and you want a gun. I go buy one, and then sell it to you in a private sale. private sales are legal here. but my intent to purchase for a private sale to a foreigner (and you kind of look like a pirate) is not. I guess this falls under fraud?

That would not be fraud. You simply would have committed a gun offense.

One misconception about criminal statutes is that when the statute includes words like knowingly, and intentionally, that you are safe because the state can never prove your state of mind.

The reality is that people get convicted of violating such statutes all of the time because direct evidence of the defendant's intention is never required. That state does not have to show that you told someone of your intentions. Intent is proven or demonstrated using the facts and circumstances in a case, and a jury decides, almost always based on indirect or circumstantial evidence that you surely must have known/intended to do act X.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 7:51 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 270 (642799)
12-01-2011 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by onifre
12-01-2011 3:21 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
You also use drug dealing in your example of someone who isn't earning an honest living. But how so? They buy and sell a product to an already existing market. Where does the dishonesty come into play?

It's not dishonest. But the fact that they aren't lying and stealing doesn't mean that we ought to carve statutes for them.

But many drug dealers are still predators and I don't apologize for my disdain for how they make money. Many people who resort to dealing make no bones about refusing other, less lucrative methods, legal means of earning a living that others will put up with. I've flipped burgers, swabbed floors, operated buffers, enlisted in the Navy, etc. even while my middle class parents were enjoying a more than adequate middle class living.

So, no having a bad life doesn't entitle them to peddle their crap. Not any more than I'm entitled to live in my mother's basement.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by onifre, posted 12-01-2011 3:21 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by onifre, posted 12-02-2011 3:29 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 270 (642923)
12-02-2011 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by onifre
12-02-2011 3:29 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
From what I gather talking to people, it's like they hate the lifestyle of the drug dealer rather than the drugs themselves.

Do you know me that well?

Maybe I hate the damage that I've seen inflicted on family members and I don't buy the idea that drug dealers bear no responsibility for the pain that the crap they sell stuff inflicts on others who don't even use.

I feel the same way about tobacco companies. There is nothing innocent or cute about selling deadly, addictive, crap.

I've personally decided how I feel about certain drugs. I don't care whether they are illegal or not. I don't care what the feds think. And I don't care that you apparently like drugs, cigarettes or both.

It might be interesting to talk about big Pharma, but quite frankly the fact that some other group of folks are evil would seem to be beside the point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by onifre, posted 12-02-2011 3:29 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by onifre, posted 12-02-2011 4:04 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 270 (642930)
12-02-2011 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by onifre
12-02-2011 4:04 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
You are gettiing away from the point, which is that a dealer isn't a dishonest person or some individual who is likely to steal from you.

We don't disagree that drug dealing is not dishonest. But given that I acknowledged that point at the outset, that cannot logically be the reason why you responded to my post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by onifre, posted 12-02-2011 4:04 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by onifre, posted 12-03-2011 1:55 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 270 (642982)
12-03-2011 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by onifre
12-03-2011 1:55 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
We needn't go anywhere. I stand by my position that in general, people who sell addictive, poison to addicts are predators. I don't care if those sellers are polished, educated, or nice. I have even less respect for people who do so despite the fact that they don't even need the money.

I agree that my story was anecdotal. But I know quite a few anecdotes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by onifre, posted 12-03-2011 1:55 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by onifre, posted 12-03-2011 9:19 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 270 (643220)
12-05-2011 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by crashfrog
12-05-2011 4:49 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
Only if your time isn't worth anything. (Which is frequently assumed to be the case of women, which is why family meals have long been assumed to be the woman's work.)

I'd take it even further than this. It's pretty expensive to fix yourself anything like a healthy meal at home. What's relatively cheap is filling your kids up on empty calories and fatty, sugary garbage.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by crashfrog, posted 12-05-2011 4:49 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by onifre, posted 12-05-2011 5:16 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 270 (818485)
08-29-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
08-29-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Jesus was a Leftist Socialist Communist
Your true colors are shining through. A real follower of Christ would speak up for her fellow man at the judgement, not gloat.

Other than the "e" in judgment, I wish I had said that!!


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 08-29-2017 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 08-29-2017 1:16 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 262 of 270 (818488)
08-29-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
08-29-2017 1:16 PM


Re: Jesus was a Leftist Socialist Communist
Get with the times. Everything is "e" nowadays, even e-judgment.

I suppose...

But the image of a someone in line laughing because a person they had conversed with was being set to Hell is just too disturbing to let go by. Sure that kind of smirking is not Christ-like...

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 08-29-2017 1:16 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 270 (828463)
02-18-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Tangle
02-18-2018 12:45 PM


Re: They All Need Punishment
The bigger question is why did your creator build this behaviour into us?

Wait, I thought you said that stealing was a cultural thing. Maybe it is not built into us.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2018 12:45 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2018 4:03 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 270 (828467)
02-18-2018 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Tangle
02-18-2018 4:03 PM


Re: They All Need Punishment
No, I said that crime was normal.

Not so fast. You did say that, and then you told a story about folks not stealing a laptop in Japan. You said the reason was cultural.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2018 4:03 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2018 6:02 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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