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Author Topic:   What bothers me about the evolution of Man
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 46 of 142 (643166)
12-05-2011 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2011 10:35 AM


Catholic Scientist writes:


There have been multiple species in the Homo genus that were fairly intelligent and not our ancestors. It happened more than once.

Well maybe, but I'm not sure that we know that all/any other Homo were conscious beings - which I'd say was the break through.

But if we could show that other Homos were big brained and conscious or even just very intelligent I'd still say that it has only happened once.

There are no other examples of real intelligence in the animal kingdom - either now or before. But we know that other massively useful adaptions have evolved several times in several groups - eyes, flight etc.

I'm not arguing against the proposition that our brain evolved, I'm simply saying that it's interesting that such a useful thing isn't more widespread.


Life, don't talk to me about life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2011 10:35 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Panda, posted 12-05-2011 1:42 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 48 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2011 1:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 47 of 142 (643170)
12-05-2011 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tangle
12-05-2011 1:27 PM


Tangle writes:

There are no other examples of real intelligence in the animal kingdom...

This is only true if you redefine 'intelligence' to exclude the intelligent animals that surround us.
You could maybe argue that mankind is the most intelligent - but it would be wrong to claim that there are no other intelligent animals.

If we claim to be 10 (on a 1-10 scale of intelligence) then that is simply because someone has to be.
But that ignores all of the 9.9's, 9.8's.

Intelligence is used by every living creature.
Just some animals have more than others.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 1:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 2:24 PM Panda has replied
 Message 50 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2011 2:58 PM Panda has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 142 (643171)
12-05-2011 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tangle
12-05-2011 1:27 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:


There have been multiple species in the Homo genus that were fairly intelligent and not our ancestors. It happened more than once.


Well maybe,

No, for real.

but I'm not sure that we know that all/any other Homo were conscious beings - which I'd say was the break through.

Your cat is a conscious being.... I think the word your looking for is sentient.

But if we could show that other Homos were big brained and conscious or even just very intelligent I'd still say that it has only happened once.

Why? Sentience happened more than once...

There are no other examples of real intelligence in the animal kingdom - either now or before.

There's the other species in Homo and also, australopithecus exhibit traits of sentience. I don't know about that "real" qualifier, but chimps and dolphins and elephants all exhibit traits of sentience as well.

But we know that other massively useful adaptions have evolved several times in several groups - eyes, flight etc.

I'm not arguing against the proposition that our brain evolved, I'm simply saying that it's interesting that such a useful thing isn't more widespread.

We killed them.

Seriosuly, start getting competitive with us and your species goes down.

ABE:

From Message 49

quote:
i would strongly argue that on a scale of 1 to 10 where we are 10, the next highest qualifying intelligence would be less than 1 by a long, long way. And until you can find an example of a species using any form of technolgy cleverer than a pointy stick and/or language higher than a few grunts, shreaks and pings, i'd say nothing even approaches the scale.

So, you don't know what you're talking about then...

Neandertals were pretty sophisticated.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 1:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 49 of 142 (643178)
12-05-2011 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Panda
12-05-2011 1:42 PM


You could maybe argue that mankind is the most intelligent - but it would be wrong to claim that there are no other intelligent animals.
If we claim to be 10 (on a 1-10 scale of intelligence) then that is simply because someone has to be.
But that ignores all of the 9.9's, 9.8's.

i would strongly argue that on a scale of 1 to 10 where we are 10, the next highest qualifying intelligence would be less than 1 by a long, long way. And until you can find an example of a species using any form of technolgy cleverer than a pointy stick and/or language higher than a few grunts, shreaks and pings, i'd say nothing even approaches the scale.


Life, don't talk to me about life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Panda, posted 12-05-2011 1:42 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Panda, posted 12-05-2011 6:07 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 67 by Larni, posted 12-06-2011 4:19 AM Tangle has replied

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3966
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 50 of 142 (643185)
12-05-2011 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Panda
12-05-2011 1:42 PM


This is only true if you redefine 'intelligence' to exclude the intelligent animals that surround us.
You could maybe argue that mankind is the most intelligent - but it would be wrong to claim that there are no other intelligent animals.

If we claim to be 10 (on a 1-10 scale of intelligence) then that is simply because someone has to be.
But that ignores all of the 9.9's, 9.8's.

Intelligence is used by every living creature.
Just some animals have more than others.

You vastly underestimate the difference in intelligence shown between humans and other species.

Some birds have been shown to be sufficiently intelligent to recognize the patterns in stop lights and drop nuts in front of cars that are stopped so that they'll crack the shells when the lights turn green.

Humans have been shown to sufficiently understand the basic workings of the Universe to transmit information on a global scale nearly instantly, calculate the motion of planetary bodies, and escape the gravity well of the planet.

Various species of ape participate in complex social hierarchies.

Humans do that, too - with social groups many orders of magnitude larger.

Many animals make "nests" of one sort or another for shelter.

Humans build skyscrapers. We're thinking about orbital habitats and permanent bases on the moon, and we have the intelligence to actually pull it off.

The level of disparity in adaptive intelligence is so large that there lacks a sufficient scale. Our brains are like supercomputers while the most intelligent animals are basic calculators. Our closest competition isn't close at all.

And yet human intelligence requires major sacrifices. We spend far more energy on our brains than other animals, around 20% of our total metabolism goes to fuel our brains instead of our muscles. We would starve to death more rapidly than a similar organism that only devoted 5-10% of its metabolic energy to its brain, and that's a major disadvantage. Others have pointed out the sacrifices made in reproduction, that human babies are born significantly early because the cranium is so large that it has to finish development outside the womb. This is another huge disadvantage.

The only reasonable solution that accoutns for how we could establish such intellectual disparity in the face of such significant evolutionary disadvantages is a self-perpetuating cycle where greater intelligence compared to the group provides a continual reproductive and survival advantage one generation after another. The best example of this is social competition, where the individuals of our species compete with each other for social dominance, where such dominance leads to both advantages in survival and in reproduction. The offspring then compete with each other, and so on, in a cycle that never ends.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Panda, posted 12-05-2011 1:42 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2011 3:52 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 63 by Panda, posted 12-05-2011 7:07 PM Rahvin has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 51 of 142 (643188)
12-05-2011 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2011 1:49 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

Neandertals were pretty sophisticated

Yup - they had fire and everything. But they evolved from the same line as us, so I'll stick with what I said, our level of intelligence and sentience/consciousness has only evolved once.


Life, don't talk to me about life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2011 1:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2011 3:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 142 (643189)
12-05-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
12-05-2011 3:29 PM


Yup - they had fire and everything. But they evolved from the same line as us, so I'll stick with what I said, our level of intelligence and sentience/consciousness has only evolved once.

But now your claim is vacuous...

ABE:

Seriously though, if Homos split into two different species that both exhibit sentience, what's the point in saying that because they both came from a common ancestor that it only happened once when its clearly being shown that it happened more than once?

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 3:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2011 4:31 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 142 (643191)
12-05-2011 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Rahvin
12-05-2011 2:58 PM


You vastly underestimate the difference in intelligence shown between humans and other species.

The level of disparity in adaptive intelligence is so large that there lacks a sufficient scale.

That depends on what you're talking about...

If you take one average human and put him in a room with one average Neandertal, they could use the same scale.

However, if, like you're doing, you take the technological advancements made by billions of humans and compare it too extant species, then yeah, the scales don't compare.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2011 2:58 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2011 4:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3966
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 54 of 142 (643194)
12-05-2011 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2011 3:52 PM


That depends on what you're talking about...

If you take one average human and put him in a room with one average Neandertal, they could use the same scale.

However, if, like you're doing, you take the technological advancements made by billions of humans and compare it too extant species, then yeah, the scales don't compare.

1) I realize that others are including extinct species, specifically extinct hominids that are closer relatives to humans than extant apes, but I'm not. It's rather tough to gauge the relative intelligence of an extinct species, especially since we'd also be talking about our own extinct ancestors rather than modern man in the comparison. I'm only comparing modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens to other extant species.

2) Our ability to share information with other members of our social groups on an abstract, as opposed to demonstrative level is part of what sets us apart intellectually. Human beings don't have to learn everything solo, or even mimic what we see other individuals doing - we can communicate abstract concepts through language rather than demonstration. Other species can't do that. They learn alone, and some of them are capable of mimicking behavior they see in others, but you can't give a team of macaws all the tools and material and blueprints necessary for building a skyscraper and expect them to understand the plans.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2011 3:52 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2011 4:19 PM Rahvin has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 142 (643201)
12-05-2011 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Rahvin
12-05-2011 4:03 PM


I'm only comparing modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens to other extant species.

Why? In the context of something "that only evolved once" that seems to be begging the question.

Our ability to share information with other members of our social groups on an abstract, as opposed to demonstrative level is part of what sets us apart intellectually.

Maybe a better word would be "knowledge" than "intelligence".

Haven't you heard of a particular chimp being said to have the intelligence of a 3 year old human, or something like that? That's using the same scale that you're saying no other animals are even on...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2011 4:03 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Rahvin, posted 12-05-2011 7:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 56 of 142 (643207)
12-05-2011 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2011 3:44 PM


But now your claim is vacuous

I'm sorry, I not used to discussing at this level of pedantry. Please try to accept a general, high level point when you come across one.

If you know of any non-ape descended animal that has developed anything even approaching our level of intelligence or consciousness (or bloody sentience if you prefer), please name it.


Life, don't talk to me about life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2011 3:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 142 (643211)
12-05-2011 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tangle
12-05-2011 4:31 PM


I'm sorry, I not used to discussing at this level of pedantry.

Please try to accept a general, high level point when you come across one.

What point? Your pointless one?

If you know of any non-ape descended animal that has developed anything even approaching our level of intelligence or consciousness (or bloody sentience if you prefer), please name it.

More of them or the same ones again? Dolphins and elephants were mentioned and they are pretty damn smart...

But really, there's no point. The fact that non-apes haven't developed as much intelligence as humans doesn't mean a whole lot. Especially in the context of the evolution of the brains of man. More especially, in the context of the fact that other non-man species also evolved similiar levels of intelligence.


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 58 of 142 (643232)
12-05-2011 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2011 4:41 PM


non-man species also evolved similiar levels of intelligence.

If you are talking about Neanderthals and simmilar none of their brain sizes comes close to us on a scale where a squid is 1 and we are 10 they would be a 6,5 at best. Cant be to sure without an iq test from them


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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jar
Member
Posts: 33906
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 59 of 142 (643236)
12-05-2011 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by frako
12-05-2011 5:31 PM


Actually the Neanderthal brain size was very comparable to today's modern Homo sapiens brain size and seem to average slightly larger than Homo sapiens sapiens.

quote:
Abstract

Full brain endocast reconstructions of the Neandertals, Spy I and II, Djebel Ihroud I, and the Homo erectus specimen from Salè, Morocco have yielded accurate volumes. Spy I = 1,305 ml; Spy II = 1,553 ml; Djebel Ihroud I = 1,305 ml; Salè = 880 ml. While there are no remarkable gyral and sulcal patterns one can delineate, the brain endocasts do show evidence of left-occipital, right-frontal petalias, suggesting right-handedness, and possibly human cognitive specialization, involving symbol processing and visuospatial integration. Some speculations regarding Neandertal brain size are also offered, in which it is suggested that their possibly larger brain sizes were related to greater muscularity than in modern Homo sapiens.


From American Journal of Physical Anthropology Volume 55, Issue 3, pages 385–393, July 1981


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by frako, posted 12-05-2011 5:31 PM frako has replied

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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 60 of 142 (643239)
12-05-2011 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
12-05-2011 5:44 PM


dang i take it back i thought their brains where smaller some 70% the size of ours at max

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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