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Author Topic:   Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 76 of 264 (64357)
11-04-2003 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by theOtter
11-03-2003 4:35 PM


Yes, the mark of Cain was a skin of blackness. We’ve firmly established that.
That's not even close to Biblical, just so you know. The mark is on his forehead, not his entire skin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by theOtter, posted 11-03-2003 4:35 PM theOtter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2003 10:44 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 264 (64362)
11-04-2003 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Agent Uranium [GPC]
08-17-2003 9:49 PM


quote:
Thank you. I do, in fact, look forward to talking to those two Sisters. This thread has certainly helped me out a lot, especially with respect to further investigation on my part. I doubt they can convert me away from Islam, but it has certainly made me take more notice of what I used to class as a "fringe religion".
The problems with both Islam and Mormonism are as follows:
1. Neither the BOM or the Quran, the so called holy books of these religions contains any fulfilled prophecy that the Bible didn't first provide to show them to be supernatural.
2. Neither of these Johnny come lately books provide anything whatsoever in them to help us in this life or the life to come that the Bible didn't first provide. I've challenged Mormons on many occasions that if they could refute this I would become a Mormon. (I knew I was safe.)
3. Both books are dependent on the testimony of one author whereas the Bible was authored by about 40 different men from all walks of life, both rich and poor, educated and non-educated from kings to fishermen with a common thread of the history of the world from beginning to end (some future}, so far with all prophecies in tact.
4. Both prophets borrowed from the Bible, using distorted plageristic material.
5. Both prophets contradict the Bible in much of their doctrine.
6. Both religions require membership/adherance to their human organization to receive the spiritual benefits of the religion, whereas Biblical Christianity requires no adherance or membership in any one human organization to receive the benefits and salvation promised in the Bible, though some might try to teach otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-17-2003 9:49 PM Agent Uranium [GPC] has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 78 of 264 (64364)
11-04-2003 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by theOtter
11-04-2003 8:10 AM


Re: Some answers
To quote the prophet Jacob, Brethren, adieu.
Dammit! I'd have liked to see Otter and Joralex in a debate about the Really Real Truth (TM)!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by theOtter, posted 11-04-2003 8:10 AM theOtter has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 264 (64365)
11-04-2003 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by crashfrog
11-04-2003 9:51 AM


quote:
That's not even close to Biblical, just so you know. The mark is on his forehead, not his entire skin.
I'm not aware that Cain was suppose to have either a mark on his forehead or black skin. Where do you arrive at this mark? The races were not created, imo, until the Tower of Babel which came later at the time of the creation of different tongues, each tongue going to their separate locations. Likely it took some time for the pigment of blacks to darken. Something physical evidently did occur supernaturally with the genes of the various languages at that time by God.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-04-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2003 9:51 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-04-2003 11:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 264 (64366)
11-04-2003 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Buzsaw
11-04-2003 10:44 AM


quote:
Where do you arrive at this mark?
This is the closest I can find:
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
{A note from Adminnemooseus - There exists the topic "Old Habits Die Hard (The "mark" on Cain)"}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-04-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2003 10:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 264 (64372)
11-04-2003 11:27 AM


Absolutes
buzsaw is absolutely certain that the Spirit is guiding him in the ways of Truth.
theOtter is absolutely certain that the Spirit is guiding him in the ways of Truth.
Numerous other religious groups are absolutely certain that the Spirit is guiding them in the ways of Truth.
IOW, they each claim that it is only they who "know what salt tastes like."
This thread absolutely proves only one thing:
People not only can and do fool themselves into believing that they are Spirit led, but they are also incapable of recognizing their own delusion.
Amlodhi

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-04-2003 3:34 PM Amlodhi has not replied
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2003 6:26 PM Amlodhi has not replied
 Message 141 by lfen, posted 12-11-2004 10:31 PM Amlodhi has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 82 of 264 (64398)
11-04-2003 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by theOtter
11-04-2003 8:10 AM


Re: Some answers
So your answer is that since the LDS church has fooled a lot of people that the Book of Mormon must be true ? And then you go on to repeat the claims of Mormon Apologists - none of them yet supported - as if they were fact.
The fact is that mainstream archaeologists (and even some Mormons !) have found no sign of the Book of Mormon civilisations. Mormon apologists typically refer to things like the Bat Creek Stone - while not mentioning the fact that if the stone is genuine and if script IS "Paleo-Hebrew" (i.e. Canaanite or Phoenician) - and both are far from certain - the letter forms are closest to those of the first century BC to first century AD, far too late to have anything to do with the Nephites or Lamanites (who would have been using Joseph Smith's fictional "Reformed Egyptian" instead).
The Bat Creek Stone: Judeans in Tennessee?"
The Bat Creek Stone: A Final Statement"
It is obivous that one of us has made his mind up and will not hear the truth - and it is equally obvious that it is you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by theOtter, posted 11-04-2003 8:10 AM theOtter has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 83 of 264 (64403)
11-04-2003 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Amlodhi
11-04-2003 11:27 AM


Re: Absolutes
Amen to that.
I would say that they are free to delude themselves any way they wish, as long as they don't try to get me involved.
By the way - I've been very impressed with theOtter. We need more of his kind of intelligent and informed debate, and less of the nonsense that Joralex likes to toss around.
The Rock Hound

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Amlodhi, posted 11-04-2003 11:27 AM Amlodhi has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 264 (64421)
11-04-2003 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by theOtter
11-03-2003 12:14 PM


Re: Some answers
I don't have time tonight, unfortunately, to get into your good, well-written post, but I will say a couple of things.
Are you telling me that women can rise as high in the LDS church governance as any man?
I have never, ever heard of LDS women being able to attain priesthood in the Mormon Church (except briefly about 100 years ago), and everything I have ever read confirms this. Can you link to information which supports what you claim?
According to the several LDS women I have spoken with, their expected role is to have babies, raise them and run their households. They basically imply that to be a good Mormon woman they are not supposed to want the priesthood or to be involved with the governance of the Church beyond passing on what the always all-male bishops and prophets declare as doctrine in an educational role.
Also, WRT to my "asking God", in the passage you linked to is states that one myst do so with "faith in Jesus". Well, if I already have "faith in Jesus", then by definition I already believe, so asking God anything seems redundant.
I was without belief. I spoke to God. Nothing happened, even though you promised it would.
If you have to start out believing in God before speaking to God to get God to answer, then that's not really the same as what I am asking for. You have now put out the rather unreasonable demand that I believe in God first, before I will get an answer.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-04-2003]
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-04-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by theOtter, posted 11-03-2003 12:14 PM theOtter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 11-04-2003 6:11 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 85 of 264 (64423)
11-04-2003 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by theOtter
11-03-2003 1:05 PM


quote:
How can you even tell the difference between genuine revelation and lying to yourself?
quote:
?that?s not something I can answer for you. I?ve learned the difference over the past dozen years, but it?s a very personal thing. It?s kind of like trying to explain what salt tastes like (a comparison I cannot take credit for, but still a valid one): let?s imagine I?d never tasted salt. You can try to tell me what salt tastes like until you?re blue in the face, but until I?ve actually tasted it myself, I?ll never really know.
If there's no way to externally test to determine that you are lying to yourself, then you actually can't say that you "know."
You "believe" but that's not at all the same as "knowing".
For instance, there are many people who are just as passionate, sure, and dedicated to their belief as you are who are utterly convinced that they and/or their children and loved ones have been abducted by space aliens.
They have just as much evidence as you do for your belief.
Should we therefore believe them as well?
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-04-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by theOtter, posted 11-03-2003 1:05 PM theOtter has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 86 of 264 (64424)
11-04-2003 6:09 PM


otter, what do you make of this?
The Book of Mormon and DNA studies
quote:
Not every statement in a holy book can be verified or disproved scientifically. For example, there is no archeological evidence that would prove the existence of most personalities described in the Bible prior to the time of King Solomon. Similarly, most of the events cannot be corroborated with hard evidence outside the Bible. However, one teaching of the Book of Mormon is different. It teaches that three groups of ancient Hebrews came from Israel to the Americas -- the first in 2247 BCE. Their descendants separated into two nations, the Nephites and the Lamanites. Subsequently, all but the Lamanites died off. The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of modern-day Native Americans. DNA, facial structure, and blood type studies seem to conflict with this belief. They demonstrate that the today's Natives descended from ancient people in Siberia. If the Natives were descendents of Lamanites, then one would expect to find Middle Eastern genetic markers in the DNA, facial structures and blood factors of American Natives.
DNA Studies:
A number of investigators have used genetic and blood testing studies to show that Native Americans are related closely to the inhabitants of Siberia . However, Thomas W. Murphy, 35, chairperson of the anthropology department at Edmonds Community College in Lynnwood, WA went further. He was raised as a Mormon in southern Idaho, and has said that he is "not an active member of the local congregation, but I'm very active in the Mormon intellectual community." 2 He decided to examine whether DNA analysis would confirm that many, perhaps most, Native Americans are descended from ancient Israelites. According to the LA Times, "He analyzed data collected by a multimillion-dollar 'molecular genealogy' project at Brigham Young [University] as well as other, similar projects that track ancestry from people worldwide via DNA in blood samples." Murphy concluded that over the last few thousand years, modern-day Jews and modern-day Native Americans do not share common ancestors. If they did, then genetic markers would be found in Natives identical to those in the descendents of ancient Hebrews. He concluded that: "the Book of Mormon is a piece of 19th century fiction. And that means that we have to acknowledge sometimes Joseph Smith lied." However, he believes that "the book might be fiction, but inspired as well."

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 87 of 264 (64425)
11-04-2003 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by nator
11-04-2003 5:43 PM


Re: Some answers
'I was without belief. I spoke to God. Nothing happened, even though you promised it would.'
Schraff, if you believe and know God has heard you it does work (do you think I'm lying). Why should there be any special cases, if there ARE believers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 11-04-2003 5:43 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2003 6:33 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 95 by nator, posted 11-04-2003 8:28 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 142 by lfen, posted 12-11-2004 10:45 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 264 (64428)
11-04-2003 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Amlodhi
11-04-2003 11:27 AM


Re: Absolutes
quote:
buzsaw is absolutely certain that the Spirit is guiding him in the ways of Truth.
Fundamentalists don't go by any spirit perse. We go by what is written. In the case of the Bible, the Holy Spirit inspired the writings of the book. The Spirit does help us in giving understanding in the light of all the contexts relating to a scripture and gives us a spiritually inclined mind.
The danger in going by a spirit is that there are many spirits who are evil and lead to falacy and deception.
If I see a prophecy in the Bible I look at history and current events for fulfillment. The Spirit has already done his work when the prophecy was given. All I need do is look for the fulfillment. That's religiously scientific factual stuff. The Holy Spirit doesn't need to help me read my history book and newspaper. I can do that and decide whether to accept or reject those recorded and observed facts. Isn't this how true science is suppose to work? The Bible covers historical stuff only about 6000 years. The problem with modern science is they're claiming to know what conditions were in place millions to billions of years old and that takes a lotta speculation in interpreting dating data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Amlodhi, posted 11-04-2003 11:27 AM Amlodhi has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by mike the wiz, posted 11-04-2003 6:28 PM Buzsaw has replied
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 89 of 264 (64430)
11-04-2003 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
11-04-2003 6:26 PM


Re: Absolutes
Buz,
What about you. Do your prayers get answered? and does your faith usually affect this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2003 6:26 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2003 6:46 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 264 (64431)
11-04-2003 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by mike the wiz
11-04-2003 6:11 PM


Re: Some answers
quote:
Schraff, if you believe and know God has heard you it does work (do you think I'm lying). Why should there be any special cases, if there ARE believers?
There are some other conditions besides faith to be met for Biblical answers to prayer. Don't ask me to document here as that's not the subject here, but check it out. I don't see why one who badmouths the true god Jehovah should expect to get anything from him without repentance to begin with.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-04-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 11-04-2003 6:11 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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