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Author Topic:   Occupy Wall Street, London and Evereywhere Else
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 136 of 208 (643620)
12-09-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Rahvin
12-09-2011 2:51 PM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
Part of what he had to build on wasn't just a bunch of bodies occupying jobs, but people who do their jobs well enough to produce a product that's good and cheap enough for him to be able to broker that deal.
I dunno, some of those plant jobs could be done by robots... we're just not that sophisticated. And, personally, I'm happy to see humans out there working.
Its those of us in here, TSR&D dept., that made sure our products matched the competitors and didn't fall apart once implemented, that are the ones that put in the extra effort to make sure it went down smoothly (we're all on salaries tho). Hell, they even got me out of the office and lab and into the field turning wrenched. No, literally, bolting shit together hooking up products. And I didn't see a dime for all the extra work I put in. But ya know, that's the agreement I have with my employer and I'm free to seek out something better somewhere else or propose my own changes to my current position.
And this has come up before. I've seen sales opportunities during my personal free time and approached the head of sales about how I'd get paid if I sold some of our products. The reply was that the way things are currently set-up, it would be a house account and I wouldn't receive any commission on it (I don't have an account set-up for myself). Or, I could write up a proposal that details the commission structure, and they could approve it and set up an account for me (I've seen new salesguys hired that had deals already in their back pocket and that's what they did: "I'll provide your company with this business if you give me X"). The only problem with that is there's already a local salesguy that covers this territory and I'd be stepping on his toes. He's a nice guy, so I just provide him the leads when I see them instead of pursuing them myself. I don't know how to propose a commission deal like that anyways. I could put all the effort into it, but then, there goes my medium chill.
I've never gotten a bonus. Ever. At any job. At my current employer, I;ve gotten exactly one raise. I have personally saved my current company (and previous employers) at minimum hundreds of thousands of dollars (one recent project we projected to save over $200,000 per year, and I was one of two people who worked on that project, and I did all of the planning and documentation and half of the implementation). I was the "single key" person in many of those cases, largely because I work in IT and I'm often the only person working on a given project. I consistently get stellar performance reviews from my management.
We estimate that every dollar saved on our end is the equivalent of $10 won in a project. But when some project manager or executive wins a job worth a few hundred grand or a few million in fees for the company, they get bonuses and raises. Including the very, very large win we recently got where I provided all of the IT support for all of our employees and subcontractors and basically made it possible for them to make their proposal.
Nobody is going to hand those savings to you. You have to go and grab them yourself. Maybe you can ammend you're agreement with the company to provide you with a percentage of those savings. You're gonna have to play hard ball. If they're unwilling, you might have to find a different company that is. But you're gonna have to do it yourself.
I get notified that my yearly healthcare costs are going up by $1000 out of my pocket, and that I'll be lucky to see a $500 raise. I work hard and get results, but the only people getting rewarded are the people who are already making six figures or more.
I don't think my experience is particularly unique.
As long as you sit there and let them fuck you and not go and make the changes to make it any different, they're gonna continue to do it. Whining on the sidewalk that its not fair isn't going to provide you with anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Rahvin, posted 12-09-2011 2:51 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 137 of 208 (643621)
12-09-2011 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by hooah212002
12-09-2011 3:54 PM


Re: really?
ya rly
im totally off the grid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by hooah212002, posted 12-09-2011 3:54 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by hooah212002, posted 12-09-2011 5:03 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied
 Message 141 by Son, posted 12-09-2011 5:18 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied
 Message 146 by Shield, posted 12-10-2011 7:32 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


(1)
Message 138 of 208 (643622)
12-09-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Rahvin
12-09-2011 3:44 PM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
1. Is the government "very bad" at running the military?
2. Is the government "very bad" at running Medicare/Medicaid?
3. Is the government "very bad" at building roads and highways?
4. Is the government "very bad" at running the fire department?
5. Was the government "very bad" when it solved the problems that caused the Great Depression?
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
Any more brain busters?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Rahvin, posted 12-09-2011 3:44 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 139 of 208 (643624)
12-09-2011 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Artemis Entreri
12-09-2011 11:33 AM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
Its your money and ultimately your responsibility.
If we were talking about your health, and you wanted to do one thing and your doctors - who are experts - wanted you to do another, isn't the "responsible" thing to follow the expert advice of your doctors?
I'm puzzled by your notion that it was somehow "irresponsible" for many thousands of Americans to follow the advice of the experts who claimed to be acting on their behalf. You're turning the very notion of "responsibility" on its head.
Sorry but I come correct, and I aint part of the 99% because I got my shit together.
I doubt very much that you're pulling down the cool quarter-mil a year necessary to be in the 1%.
Here’s an idea, grow the fuck up. Check yourself before you wreck yourself, and be responsible.
Empty platitudes. See if you can answer the question I asked CS. How large a mortgage can you afford at your current income level at 8% APR? See if you can work the numbers on pen and paper.
If that's not something even an elite thinker such as yourself can solve without complex calculations, is it really reasonable to expect people, sitting there across the desk from an expert in mortgage brokering, to run those numbers in their head and reject a mortgage because its more than they can afford?
Sometimes bad things happen to good people, AE. I know that's a revolutionary thought to a conservative such as yourself, but its nonetheless true (and its exactly what you'll claim is happening every time something bad happens to you. Conservatives love personal responsibility unless they're the ones being asked to take it.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-09-2011 11:33 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-12-2011 10:16 AM crashfrog has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 140 of 208 (643626)
12-09-2011 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Artemis Entreri
12-09-2011 4:51 PM


Re: really?
I'll have to take your word.......reluctantly. However, I have to say: it must be difficult to get around anywhere, what with not using public roads. It must be doubly difficult to post on EvC, what with not using the internet that is only here because of society. Must be especially difficult growing the tea the you boost from the ...store, is it? How do you shop at a store? is it your own personal store? It must be.
I think people such as yourself don't actually realize how much they need society......
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-09-2011 4:51 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 141 of 208 (643628)
12-09-2011 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Artemis Entreri
12-09-2011 4:51 PM


Re: really?
Well, I thought you were using the Internet but it seems that was a wrong assumption. Are you a psychic of some kind? Can you read my thought? If you want to prove it, just tell me where I was born.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-09-2011 4:51 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 142 of 208 (643659)
12-10-2011 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by crashfrog
12-08-2011 1:13 PM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
crashfrog writes:
Catholic Scientist writes:
One of the biggest shocks for me when I grew up (that is, got out of college and into the 'real world') was realizing that nobody is going to hand you anything.
Why do you think it was a shock? Because all the adults you grew up with were telling you that if you got with the program, followed the rules, you would get handed something - the chance to work, to do something that mattered, and to get some kind of security as a result so that you could raise kids and own a home without every day being a fight for mere survival.
That's not what most parents, teachers and schools told the kids. We warned our boys to the contrary; not to expect anything to be handed to them. They would have to do the footwork to find a job. They were advised to do things that mattered and to purpose in themselves to do them. They had to work hard and strive to make themselves secure. If they wanted to raise kids, they would have to accept the personal responsibility needful to train and raise kids in the way they should go. They would have to either find affordable housing within their financial ability, be it renting a modest dwelling, be it a fixer-upper in a cheaper district or be it a little trailer home (as was the case with me and my new wife), etc.
Every day in this freedom founded nation affords opportunity to survival. Each must learn, work and plan for their own survival. Survival in the land of the free is largely the responsibility of the individual, not something handed to them, as is the case with all of the above
crashfrog writes:
Weren't all those adults living in the "real world"? Isn't that exactly how it worked for them; they got the grades, got the degrees, got the job and the house and the yard?
No! Of course not. By and large they/we had to earn the grades to get the degrees, either find a job or create our own businesses and enterprises, work, save and/or build our own homes, businesses and living.
crashfrog writes:
The question isn't whether or not "kids today" are going to wake up and see how that isn't true, anymore. I think pretty much everybody knows that isn't true anymore. The question is how we, and our parents, let it stop being true.
The reality is that it wasn't true with us, nor will it be with them. All must assume personal responsibility for their own welfare in order to earn and enjoy the blessings.
That's a Biblical principle. The great apostle Paul, who by the way supported his own ministry as a tent maker, wisely said, "He who does not work should not eat." II Thessalonians 3:10.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by crashfrog, posted 12-08-2011 1:13 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-10-2011 10:19 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2011 10:32 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 143 of 208 (643668)
12-10-2011 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Buzsaw
12-10-2011 8:38 AM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
That's not what most parents, teachers and schools told the kids. We warned our boys to the contrary; not to expect anything to be handed to them. They would have to do the footwork to find a job. They were advised to do things that mattered and to purpose in themselves to do them. They had to work hard and strive to make themselves secure.
But what you say is ambiguous. These are weasel words.
The fact is that the older generation told their kids that if they worked hard in school, they'd get a good job.
So they did not expect anything to be "handed to them" --- they were told that they could earn it through hard work.
And what you have now is people saying --- "But I worked hard. I was honest, always. I listened to my teachers. I never did drugs. I stayed in school. I didn't get pregnant. I scored very high on my exams. I was obedient to my parents. I went to college like they said I should. And now here I am, and you know what? My parents told me that if I didn't do all those things, I'd end up flipping burgers in McDonalds. But instead I did everything they told me, and I can't get a job flipping burgers in McDonalds."
They didn't expect anything to be "handed to them". They expected to earn their position in society through hard work and intelligence and honesty and perseverance. And now they find out that these virtues are not enough, and that the American Dream is dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 8:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 7:08 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(4)
Message 144 of 208 (643670)
12-10-2011 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Buzsaw
12-10-2011 8:38 AM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
By and large they/we had to earn the grades to get the degrees, either find a job or create our own businesses and enterprises, work, save and/or build our own homes, businesses and living.
Right, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. You got the grades, earned the degrees, they qualified you either for a position with an existing company or to run your own business, the wage you made was enough to afford a home at a certain standard of living.
You've not contradicted me in the least; that's exactly the path that your generation promised because that's exactly the path that you were able to follow. And its exactly the path I described.
You're out of the loop, Buz. The 99% are here to tell you that it doesn't work like that any more. Good grades don't get you a worthwhile degree. A decent degree doesn't seem to qualify you for a job. Graduating with enormous student loan debt doesn't allow you to roll the dice on your own business. And when you finally can find work, generally after years and years of looking, the wage isn't high enough to let you do anything but live with your parents.
Nobody's asking for a handout, Buz (well, except for you, now that you live on the government dole and expect your Social Security and Medicare entitlements to rise with the increase in the cost of living. As a taxpayer: you're welcome.) Overwhelmingly the complaint of the 99% is that hard work and self-development don't result in even the scant rewards that they did in your age - a comfortable, if not lavish, standard of living, your own home, the ability to support a family, all undergirded by the promise that you wouldn't starve to death in your dotage. And its overwhelmingly the result of people like you - gaming the system to maximize the redistribution of wealth from the young to yourself - that the system doesn't work like that anymore.
The great apostle Paul, who by the way supported his own ministry as a tent maker, wisely said, "He who does not work should not eat."
Yeah, Buz? And how's your job going?
Oh, that's right! You don't work anymore - you've got a cushy living and full medical coverage, paid for by the US taxpayer. Boy, you just don't think about the things you say at all, do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 8:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 8:04 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 145 of 208 (643706)
12-10-2011 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Adequate
12-10-2011 10:19 AM


Where The Rubber Meets The Road
That's not what most parents, teachers and schools told the kids. We warned our boys to the contrary; not to expect anything to be handed to them. They would have to do the footwork to find a job. They were advised to do things that mattered and to purpose in themselves to do them. They had to work hard and strive to make themselves secure.
The fact is that the older generation told their kids that if they worked hard in school, they'd get a good job.
Not me, my parents or any I knew. We saw to it that they went to school and studied so as to prepare them for the work place. Nobody told me that I'd get a job just because I went to school, nor did we tell that to our boys. Both me and my boys went out seeking employers who would hire us. They and I began working in low paying jobs, all the while looking for better ones. Having no college degree and no trade, I started my own business, first out of my garage and then in a $45 per month rent small building on a busy street.
My boys, both college graduates, after graduation, did the footwork until they found whatever job they could get. They went from job to job until they both got good paying jobs, one in an aircraft company and the other in the security sound system business. The one in sound and security systems, after learning the business, set out on his own and is doing very well with so much demand for him that he's already contracting work to be done by sub-contractors.
I and they started from the bottom up with nothing handed to us. Had we sat on our arses waiting for opportunities to come to us, we'd all be in the poor house.
And what you have now is people saying --- "But I worked hard. I was honest, always. I listened to my teachers. I never did drugs. I stayed in school. I didn't get pregnant. I scored very high on my exams. I was obedient to my parents. I went to college like they said I should. And now here I am, and you know what? My parents told me that if I didn't do all those things, I'd end up flipping burgers in McDonalds. But instead I did everything they told me, and I can't get a job flipping burgers in McDonalds."
They didn't expect anything to be "handed to them". They expected to earn their position in society through hard work and intelligence and honesty and perseverance. And now they find out that these virtues are not enough, and that the American Dream is dead.
The only hard work you've described is school, Dr. Adequate. School is helpful. Anyone can go to school. School work is not hard to find. The rubber meets the road after school is done. Then comes the time to begin working to earn a living. Then is not the time to whine, but to get to work, in the best place you can find, be it at McDonalds or where ever. McDonalds will teach one the work ethic so as to prepare the young-un to move up to something better.
America is not a dreamland. It's a land of opportunity for anyone willing to work hard, build, invest and move on from the set backs which one should expect.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-10-2011 10:19 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-10-2011 9:03 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2862 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


(1)
Message 146 of 208 (643708)
12-10-2011 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Artemis Entreri
12-09-2011 4:51 PM


Re: really?
You are either lying or trolling.
The fact that you are able to post here, proves you live in the 'grid'.
It's retards like you who make republicans and conservatives look retarded. Youre the loud and yelling fox news minority conservative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-09-2011 4:51 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-11-2011 8:39 AM Shield has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 147 of 208 (643709)
12-10-2011 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by crashfrog
12-10-2011 10:32 AM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
crashfrog writes:
Yeah, Buz? And how's your job going?
Oh, that's right! You don't work anymore - you've got a cushy living and full medical coverage, paid for by the US taxpayer. Boy, you just don't think about the things you say at all, do you?
Crashfrog, all I ever had was a high school diploma. I miss-spoke when I said "we" about degrees. My boys have them. The eldest endured 3 years at West Point Academy, one at Prep School and 2 the last year of hazing. He still has a chest injury from a gun butt shoved in his chest at the academy by an upper classman. He went on from there to get a college degree.
Neither of my boys, having degrees, got their first jobs just because they had degrees. They took whatever they could get until they could move up.
Yes, they were told that a degree would help get the higher paying jobs, but that all depends on their own ambition, motivation, work ethic, honesty, etc. That depends on how assertive they are in doing the foot work needful to find work. It also depends on the economy, etc. The worse it gets, the more willing one must be to do whatever they can find.
FYI, I am not retired. All we get is Social Security which I've paid into for over 50 years. I never had a retirement plan and don't have a lot of cash. I have to keep working. I want to work, so long as I am able, even at my age, 76.
We drive $500 to $1000 used cars and no more than $2500 for business trucks. The last one, a 92 Buick Century has some rocker panel rust cost less that $500. It's a wonderful car with low mileage. It gets us anywhere my boys can go with their expensive newer ones, with just as much comfort and efficiency. We've learned to live well on little income, lacking nothing, leaving enough to send substantially to missions ministering in poverty ridden nations .
Having said the above, we trust God and pray about everything. God reveals himself in unusual ways, so as to show us he exists and did it.
Never in my life have we taken food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, prescription drugs, etc. We would qualify for food stamps, but take none because we don't need them. We want nothing at the expense of others.
Neither I or my wife have had a family doctor. Neither have been to a Dr, in over 40 years, since my wife's pregnancies. We do the herbals, holistic and diet regime to keep healthy. We raised our boys without docs or drugs of any kind, including aspirin.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2011 10:32 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Omnivorous, posted 12-10-2011 10:01 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 154 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2011 4:22 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 148 of 208 (643711)
12-10-2011 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Buzsaw
12-10-2011 7:08 PM


Re: Where The Rubber Meets The Road
The only hard work you've described is school, Dr. Adequate.
Well yes, what with small children not being able to get jobs as stevedores.
What I am trying to communicate to you is the frustration of someone who has spent his life doing everything right, and then finds that there's no reward for that any more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 7:08 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 9:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 149 of 208 (643713)
12-10-2011 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Dr Adequate
12-10-2011 9:03 PM


Re: Where The Rubber Meets The Road
Dr Adequate writes:
What I am trying to communicate to you is the frustration of someone who has spent his life doing everything right, and then finds that there's no reward for that any more.
So far all you've conveyed to me that they worked at or did right was their schooling. What else have they done right besides study for school?
Nearly all of the ones that I know of who didn't make it in life in the capitalist land of the free are the lazy, the feeders at the public trough, the addicts, the drunkards, the street people like so many in the Occupy W.S. loud mouth types, the ones who spend recklessly, the ones who borrow beyond their means, the thieves, etc, etc. Most of the industrious and hard working honest folks manage to make it, regardless of hard times.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-10-2011 9:03 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-10-2011 10:47 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 150 of 208 (643714)
12-10-2011 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Buzsaw
12-10-2011 8:04 PM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
Buzsaw writes:
Never in my life have we taken food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, prescription drugs, etc. We would qualify for food stamps, but take none because we don't need them. We want nothing at the expense of others.
Why do you distinguish between Social Security and food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid?
We all pay taxes for all of those. You could not receive Social Security without the contributions of others.
Having said the above, we trust God and pray about everything. God reveals himself in unusual ways, so as to show us he exists and did it.
So those who have needed food stamps, Medicare or Medicaid failed God?
It sounds to me that you have had the good fortune to require no major surgeries or treatments for potentially fatal illnesses, or assistance from others, and you think it's due to your virtue.
Maybe you need to re-read the Book of Job--you sound like one of his neighbors.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 8:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Buzsaw, posted 12-11-2011 9:18 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
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