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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 346 of 453 (565108)
06-14-2010 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Jzyehoshua
06-14-2010 2:18 PM


moving on
Hi again Jzyehoshua, thanks.

... but to move this conversation forward I'll just admit to being wrong.

Excellent, I rate this a 5 event.

I suppose there's the question of whether the peat bogs were the same as gradually sinking into a swamp, ...

What the peat bog mummies show is that this sinking can occur without bacterial decomposition. Bog mummies are made by "sinking down gradually into swamps" without the bodies being decomposed by bacteria. Once this stage has been reached the mummy can then be transformed into a fossil by other geological processes.

To the last point, I still question whether most fossils occur from peat bogs, however.

Some do, at least from conditions very similar, especially where "soft parts" are fossilized, which is a rare event among rare events.

Going back to your previous message, I have a couple minor additional comments:

I did not claim that natural mummification cannot occur, neither to my knowledge did McDowell and Stewart. Rather, the implication was that the large mass of fossils are not explained in this fashion, and that typical explanations involve sinking down gradually into swamps - which seems to be distinguishable from mummification in peat bogs.

The large mass of fossils is minuscule in comparison to the numbers of organisms that once lived on the earth, and only a small fraction of that life has been fossilized.

Your information source that this is a "typical explanation" is also incomplete at best, outright wrong at worst - and this is what is known as a straw man logical fallacy: set up a simplistic "explanation" and then demonstrate that it is false.

Curiously, all this demonstrates is that fossils are not made by "sinking down gradually into swamps," but that this may be the beginning of the process. Certainly, the issue of bacterial decay is not a problem for the (rare) preservation of organisms in the formation of fossils.

I think we can both agree that mummies are not fossils, as your typical fossils are made by replacing organic material with minerals, and this has not occurred yet with the mummies.

Interestingly this also means that we should look for another source of explanation -- McDowell and Stewart don't cut it -- preferably one that scientist that study fossils propose, rather than people who are misinformed or are misrepresenting the facts.

The implication then being, that dinosaur fossils occur via other methods...

Exactly, and this too would be an interesting new thread.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-14-2010 2:18 PM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dennis780
Member (Idle past 2856 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


(1)
Message 347 of 453 (565896)
06-21-2010 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by RAZD
06-14-2010 6:53 PM


Re: moving on
Man this thread is a busy one. I'm not sure where I left off here, but somehow we are into fossil formation...

"Some do, at least from conditions very similar, especially where "soft parts" are fossilized, which is a rare event among rare events."

Not entirely, since extreme cold can cause this as well. Absolute zero freezing causes all internal organs to be preserved. Case and point, the palm trees in the north pole, and mammoth graveyards in northern Siberia.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2010 6:53 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 12:12 AM dennis780 has responded
 Message 354 by RAZD, posted 06-22-2010 7:21 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 348 of 453 (565901)
06-22-2010 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by dennis780
06-21-2010 11:18 PM


Re: moving on
the palm trees in the north pole,

Care to show evidence of these frozen palm trees at the north pole?


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by dennis780, posted 06-21-2010 11:18 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 12:58 AM DrJones* has responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2856 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 349 of 453 (565906)
06-22-2010 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by DrJones*
06-22-2010 12:12 AM


Re: moving on
"Care to show evidence of these frozen palm trees at the north pole?"

I would love to:

quote:
In fact, 55 million years ago the Arctic was once a lot like Miami, with an average temperature of 74 degrees, alligator ancestors and palm trees, scientists say.

That conclusion, based on first-of-their-kind core samples extracted from more than 1,000 feet below the Arctic Ocean floor, is contained in three studies published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.



http://www.cbsnews.com/.../2006/05/31/tech/main1671911.shtml

quote:
PALMS flourished in the Arctic during a brief sweltering period about 50 million years ago, according to a study that hints at big gaps in scientific understanding of modern climate change.

The Arctic "would have looked very similar to the vegetation we now see in Florida," Appy Sluijs of Utrecht University in the Netherlands said.

Evidence of palms has never been found so far north before.

The scientists, sampling sediments on a ridge on the seabed that was about 500km from the North Pole 53.5 million years ago, found pollens of ancient palms as well as of conifers, oaks, pecans and other trees.



http://www.news.com.au/...study/story-e6frfkz9-1225791205191
This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 12:12 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 350 of 453 (565909)
06-22-2010 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by dennis780
06-22-2010 12:58 AM


Re: moving on
, found pollens of ancient palms as well as of conifers, oaks, pecans and other trees.

they found pollen from palms, not frozen palm trees


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 12:58 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 1:23 AM DrJones* has responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2856 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


(1)
Message 351 of 453 (565912)
06-22-2010 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by DrJones*
06-22-2010 1:07 AM


Re: moving on
quote:
Northern polar regions: Abundant remains of tropical
animals have been uncovered in icy Greenland, Alaska and
Siberia.

In these same northern polar regions are numerous fossil
trees: beech, myrtle, laurel, breadfruit, cinnamen, oak,
walnut, banana, grape vines, and so on. And from a line
north of Labrador across to Alaska: giant sequoias.

Spitzbergen and Greenland now shiver in darkness for half
of the year and lie almost continuously under snow and ice.
Yet a rich, temperate flora once covered these icy wastes in
the Arctic Ocean. Fossil remains of magnolias, fig trees,
palms, arborescent ferns (which are typically tropical)
and animals from warm climates have been discovered…
also pines, firs, spruces, cypresses, elms, hazels and water
lilies.

South polar region: Redwood forests are found buried
under massive ice deposits. These towering giants (now
typically found in the north-west of the U.S.A.) once
flourished in many diverse parts of the world, as evidenced
by many coal and fossil finds.

Back to the Arctic Circle: Here are two very interesting
island groups - the New Siberian Islands and the
Spitzbergen Islands. Remarkable things have been
reported by explorers who have been there.

Immense frozen gravel mounts were discovered to have
entombed within them entire fruit trees with the fruit still
on them. In the New Siberian Islands, whole palm trees
have been found, with their leaves and fruit.


quote:
During the past two hundred years, startling discoveries have been made in the far frozen north above the Arctic Circle. Over 96,000 huge ivory tusks have been recovered from mammoths that were mysteriously buried in tons of ice.

quote:
One of the most astonishing finds was the Berezovka Mammoth discovered in 1901 next to the Berezovka River in northern Siberia. This perfectly preserved creature was found in the upright position with fresh grass and tropical plants still in it’s mouth. It had been frozen and entombed in tons of ice so quickly that it didn’t have time to swallow and it’s mouth was full of tropical plants and grasses.

quote:
In one 600 mile stretch along the Siberian coast of the Arctic Ocean, it is estimated that over 5 million mammoths once lived along with other TROPICAL animals. The remains of huge tropical trees are still being freed from the ice every year and washing up on the coasts of the New Siberian Islands Oil drilling rigs in Alaska’s Prudhoe Bay have brought up many tropical plants including parts of palm trees, pine trees, and tropical plants of huge size and many varieties.

http://www.discoverynews.us/PrintedArticles/Mammoths.htm
This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 1:07 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 1:25 AM dennis780 has responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 352 of 453 (565914)
06-22-2010 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by dennis780
06-22-2010 1:23 AM


Re: moving on
In these same northern polar regions are numerous fossil
trees:

So no frozen palms


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 1:23 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 2:32 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2856 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


(1)
Message 353 of 453 (565929)
06-22-2010 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by DrJones*
06-22-2010 1:25 AM


Re: moving on
"So no frozen palms"

"The remains of huge tropical trees are still being freed from the ice every year and washing up on the coasts of the New Siberian Islands Oil drilling rigs in Alaska’s Prudhoe Bay have brought up many tropical plants including parts of palm trees"

Yes frozen palms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 1:25 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 354 of 453 (565954)
06-22-2010 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by dennis780
06-21-2010 11:18 PM


... perhaps we can get back to the topic?
Hi again dennis780, well that's one answer to the many questions raised for you.

Absolute zero freezing causes all internal organs to be preserved.

Curiously, absolute zero has never been experienced.

Absolute zero "is the theoretical temperature at which entropy would reach its minimum value. The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe."

Case and point, the palm trees in the north pole, ...

You mean these?

http://www.cbsnews.com/.../2006/05/31/tech/main1671911.shtml

quote:
In fact, 55 million years ago the Arctic was once a lot like Miami, with an average temperature of 74 degrees, alligator ancestors and palm trees, scientists say.

That conclusion, based on first-of-their-kind core samples extracted from more than 1,000 feet below the Arctic Ocean floor, is contained in three studies published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

The 74-degree temperature — based on core samples, which act as a climatic time capsule — was probably the year-round average. But because the data is so limited, it could also be simply the summertime average, researchers said.


You will note that the alligators and palm trees are media hyperbole, and are not mentioned as being found in the core samples. Now we could dig up the actual article in Nature if one were interested in facts rather than hyperbole.

... and mammoth graveyards in northern Siberia.

You mean these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth

quote:
The woolly mammoth (Mammuthus primigenius), also called the tundra mammoth, is an extinct species of mammoth. This animal is known from bones and frozen carcasses from northern North America and northern Eurasia with the best preserved carcasses in Siberia. They are perhaps the most well known species of mammoth.

Preserved frozen remains of woolly mammoths, with much soft tissue remaining, have been found in the northern parts of Siberia. This is a rare occurrence, essentially requiring the animal to have been buried rapidly in liquid or semi-solids such as silt, mud and icy water which then froze. This may have occurred in a number of ways. Mammoths may have been trapped in bogs or quicksands and either died of starvation or exposure, or drowning if they sank under the surface. The evidence of undigested food in the stomach and seed pods still in the mouth of many of the specimens suggests that neither starvation nor exposure are likely. The maturity of this ingested vegetation places the time period in autumn rather than in spring when flowers would be expected.[20] The animals may have fallen through ice into small ponds or potholes, entombing them. Many are certainly known to have been killed in rivers, perhaps through being swept away by river floods. In one location, by the Berelekh River in Yakutia in Siberia, more than 9,000 bones from at least 156 individual mammoths have been found in a single spot, apparently having been swept there by the current.[citation needed]


Seems to me that this gets us back to the issue of mummification rather than of fossil formation.

Curiously, it has little to do with whether or not a noah type ark would make a feasible vessel.

Enjoy

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Edited by RAZD, : subtitle


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by dennis780, posted 06-21-2010 11:18 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
Possessor
Junior Member (Idle past 2602 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 10-24-2011


Message 355 of 453 (638830)
10-26-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pandion
08-19-2009 12:34 AM


IT would survive if it was designed by God.And you must remember that these people were probally smarter than You.And ship builders discovered that the relationship of its length to its width,6-1,was so stable that the United States battleship "Oregon" was built to the same proportions.

(Encyclopedia Brown's Record Book of Weird And Wonderful Facts)

Edited by Possessor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 356 of 453 (638835)
10-26-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Possessor
10-26-2011 11:45 AM


You do know that the Oregon was an Indiana Class Battle ship and the ratio of it's length to beam is not 6-1 (351ft length by 69ft beam), and in addition that it is NOT made of wood or designed based on the Biblical Ark fable?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 355 by Possessor, posted 10-26-2011 11:45 AM Possessor has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 357 of 453 (638885)
10-26-2011 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Possessor
10-26-2011 11:45 AM


Encyclopedia Brown's Record Book of Weird And Wonderful Facts

Google has this book in their collection. It is searchable. There is nothing about the Battleship Oregon in this edition of the book.

Carry to provide a link to your source?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Possessor, posted 10-26-2011 11:45 AM Possessor has not yet responded

    
pandion
Member (Idle past 1080 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


(1)
Message 358 of 453 (641525)
11-20-2011 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by jar
10-26-2011 12:01 PM


351/69 is 5/1. I checked several battleships and didn't find any that came out to 6/1. Some older ones came out as low as 4.8/1, while more recent vessels had ratios as high as 8/1.

I also checked the ratios of several aircraft carriers. Stability is very important for these vessels. And yet, I couldn't find any that were very close to you magic 6/1 ratio. Every one that I checked had a ratio of more than 8/1, even as much as 9/1.

It seems the 6/1 ark story is a bunch of hogwash.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by jar, posted 10-26-2011 12:01 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 2240 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 359 of 453 (643717)
12-10-2011 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pandion
08-19-2009 12:34 AM


That boat can float. The dimensions of the ark indicate that it was more of a barge than a ship. It was about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. It had about 95,700 square feet on three decks, 1,400,000 cubic feet and a gross tonnage of 13,960. It was fully large enough to carry its cargo. Its carrying capacity equaled that of 522 standard railroad stockcars, which can carry 125,000 sheep. The ark was about the size of an oil tanker and was proper seagoing dimensions for an ocean voyage. Korean naval experts did a study on the ark and concluded that the ark could float.

http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/safety_aig/safety_aig.htm


And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 360 of 453 (643747)
12-11-2011 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Portillo
12-10-2011 11:28 PM


You do understand that all you have presented is unsupported assertions and word salad.

You claim...

Portillo writes:

It was fully large enough to carry its cargo.


... yet you never provide, and no flood supporter has ever provided, a list of exactly what the cargo was.

Do you see how silly it is to claim that it could carry its cargo when no one even knows what that cargo was?

You also repeat the claim that ...

Portillo writes:

Korean naval experts did a study on the ark and concluded that the ark could float.


... which is as silly as the former claim even IF such a study was really done.

Where is the study? Bring the study and the calculations so others can check their work?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 359 by Portillo, posted 12-10-2011 11:28 PM Portillo has not yet responded

  
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