Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Instinctual Behavior Vs Intelligent Decisions
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 11 of 83 (643729)
12-11-2011 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by nwr
12-10-2011 6:54 PM


If the spider is following a "program", then I doubt that it is the same type of program that we use with computers. That is, I doubt that it is a fixed sequence of mechanical steps. It seems to me that it would need a program that involves feedback and adjusting what it is doing based on the feedback - a sort of self-adaptive behavior.
as a quick FYI: It is possible to write a program that takes feedback and adjusts what it is doing based on the feedback. We have programmed robots that do this.
As for the topic: as far as I can tell, making intelligent decisions is the instinctive behaviour in at least one species on this planet and probably more.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by nwr, posted 12-10-2011 6:54 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 12-11-2011 9:56 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 14 by nwr, posted 12-11-2011 3:54 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 16 of 83 (643843)
12-12-2011 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
12-11-2011 9:56 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Much that is often considered "instinctual" real is learned behavior.
I agree that it is difficult sometimes to tell the difference. But I would add that learning itself could be considered an instinctual behaviour.
I'm not as sure that "making intelligent decisions is the instinctive behaviour in at least one species on this planet and probably more" as you seem to be.
Why not? We seem to all be doing it.
But we see examples of at least one species on this planet and maybe more making unintelligent decisions pretty regularly.
Equivocating on 'intelligent'? I don't mean 'well considered', or 'smart choices'. Obviously we are not perfect decision makers, and often make poor decisions. By intelligent I mean decisions that are arrived at through simulation, consideration, introspection etc as oppose to decisions that are made near instantly through basal instinctive reactions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 12-11-2011 9:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 11:24 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 18 of 83 (643847)
12-12-2011 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
12-12-2011 11:24 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
First, humans in general seem to make many decisions without simulation, consideration, introspection etc.
Agreed. But I don't think those are the Intelligent Decisions we are talking about in this thread. (Those would probably be instinctive behaviours instead)
Second, many decisions can be learned and practiced until they become "instinctual".
Agreed.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 11:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 11:44 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 20 of 83 (643850)
12-12-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
12-12-2011 11:44 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
So doesn't the evidence seems to point to making decisions based on simulation, consideration, introspection etc not being instinctual but yet another learned trait?
No, the evidence suggests that we have brain structures specifically designed for simulation etc. So it would appear to be instinctual. Of course, we can learn how to do it better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 11:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 12:07 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 22 of 83 (643857)
12-12-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
12-12-2011 12:07 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
All that shows is that we have certain physical capabilities; I don't see why that makes anything instinctual.
And what are instincts if not the physical tendencies of the brain? We have portions of the brain dedicated to a certain kind of behaviour that is called 'intelligent', this part of the brain develops as part of our in-built developmental process.
We think, cogitate, ruminate and simulate as if it were an integral part of our nature. The evidence for this is that the brain structures exist and the behaviour appears to be universal.
It is indeed, one of the most remarkable things observed about humans. We do it effortlessly and without training (though we often make mistakes when we rely on heuristics and biases rather than disinterested reason, so we can certainly learn to harness our instincts better - they are after all evolved traits for a different environment than we find ourselves in now).
So yeah - if we regard instinct as being the thing that our brains do naturally, without explicit learning, then yes, making intelligent decisions is instinctual. Making good decisions in the modern world is not instinctual, and must be learned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 12:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 12-12-2011 2:14 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied
 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 3:38 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 33 of 83 (643962)
12-13-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
12-12-2011 3:38 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
How is your use of "intelligent decisions" different than just the single word "decisions"?
Intelligent decisions require intelligence. Intelligence is broadly defined in this context as being reflection, rumination, simulation etc of the problem before finding several possible solutions and deciding between them based on an simulated understanding of the outcomes and a comparison to goals.
Non-intelligent decisions would be the decision to remove your hand from a fire. It basically just happens without minutes of rumination and simulation etc. We don't need to learn to remove our hand, our hand pretty much just gets moved when it experiences pain. Since it isn't a learned behaviour it is instinctual.
It is my position that we don't learn to think. That behaviour is intrinsically part of our makeup.
Sorry but I still don't get your use of the word "intelligent decisions" as being instinctive; it seems to have no meaning.
It means that making decisions after thinking through the possible consequences of each of the perceived possible options is something that happens whether we want to or not. It is an instinctive behaviour of humans to think about things.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 3:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 2:48 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 35 of 83 (643975)
12-13-2011 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
12-13-2011 2:48 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
You don't have kids and have never been around kids have you?
I have been around kids. You could have saved us both some time had you explained your point. Now I have to waste my time asking you to explain it, and you have to waste time reading my request.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 2:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 5:36 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 37 of 83 (643978)
12-13-2011 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
12-13-2011 5:36 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Sorry but all the evidence I have seen shows that humans do NOT make decisions after thinking through the possible consequences of each of the perceived possible options is something that happens whether we want to or not. In fact they make most decisions without consideration at all.
I have already granted that humans make plenty of decisions without intelligent thought. To deny that humans make some decisions by thinking through the possible consequences etc., seems the height of foolishness. If you deny that fact, there is probably no use discussing it further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 5:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 6:05 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 39 of 83 (643987)
12-13-2011 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
12-13-2011 6:05 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
If you have ever had children or spent much time around children, you would see that decision making, the idea that there are options or consequences or that you think things through are learned.
I don't disagree that there is much learned behaviour surrounding decision making.
Granted much of the hardware needed for such things is there, but not from the beginning. We grow and our brains evolve as we grow, and certain parts, particularly those parts needed to learn decision making just ain't there for a long, long time.
I agree, but it is an integral part of our developmental processes. We might not have it all from birth, but there is much that we lack at birth that will inevitably develop as we grow older. Just because some behavioural structures of the brain develop later than birth does not make it learned.
Kids stick things in electric sockets.
I'm not suggesting that knowledge of the dangers of electric sockets is instinctual. But experimenting with the unknown to learn about it is.
Kids find that "Billy did it" is a valid reason.
I said intelligent decision making is instinctual, not sound reasoning, not good decision making, not well informed decision making, not high IQ decision making. Our instincts can make us make very poor decisions for terrible reasons.
I'm not using intelligent to mean 'good', 'smart' or 'correctly reasoned'. Kids may well be 'stupid', having not learned much important information that is necessary to make informed decisions. But at least some of the decisions they make are intelligence based, even if they are not correctly reasoned or made in ignorance of vital facts.
Kids understand they had to do it because they were "double dared".
Yes, kids and adults both have an instinctual desire to be socially accepted, and they soon learn how to do that. And sometimes that means doing dares. This isn't smart, but in some cases it might be intelligent.
Many adults are not really much different and do not make intelligent decisions, decision they have considered or thought through
People can make unintelligent decisions, and they can make poorly reasoned decisions and they can make decisions that result in consequences that are contradictory to their intentions.
What people figure out is learned. The urge to figure stuff out is itself instinctual. The act of making decisions using parts of the brain associated with intelligence comes naturally to us, it is instinctual. Nobody has to learn to use intelligence - they just have to learn the relevant information and the skills to analyse that information well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 6:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 7:34 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 41 by zi ko, posted 12-15-2011 11:01 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 42 of 83 (644599)
12-19-2011 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
12-13-2011 7:34 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
We use our brain, and we learn how to do that.
I still don't disagree. But my point is that using the parts of the brain that are regarded as intelligent is instinctual. Of course, we learn specifics - but the general use of our brains to intelligent ends is instinctual. There is much to be learned before we can make good/right/correct decisions, but using the intelligent parts of our brains just comes naturally to us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 7:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 12-19-2011 12:37 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 44 of 83 (644601)
12-19-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by zi ko
12-15-2011 11:01 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
So are you suggesting, according to current theory that all these innumerate "instinctive" behaviors man shows with their innumerate grades and combinations, are inherited, coused by random mutations in specific DNA areas?
Yes, we inherit our intelligence. Much of this is caused by the genome we inherit - along with the environment of our development. This genome has mutated since it first came into being. The current theory would predict that the first life was not intelligent. So intelligence has arisen through the mechanisms described by the present theory of evolution. There may be further mechanisms that are as yet unknown.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by zi ko, posted 12-15-2011 11:01 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-19-2011 12:42 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 52 by zi ko, posted 12-19-2011 11:08 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 46 of 83 (644609)
12-19-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
12-19-2011 12:42 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
I do not see evidence that we inherit our intelligence, sorry.
I merely point to the brain, especially the Frontal Lobe of the Cortex. A part of the brain that handles reasoning, planning and problem solving, and say 'I inherited that'. When that lobe is being used, I am being 'intelligent', as I define it. I use that lobe instinctively, though it takes a lot of learning to use it well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-19-2011 12:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 12-19-2011 3:06 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 53 of 83 (644710)
12-20-2011 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by zi ko
12-19-2011 11:08 PM


the environment
"along with the environment of our development. " Could you be more specific please? Is it learninig included?
The womb seems to be an important environment that has significant impact on development. I'm excluding the learned aspects because I'm specifically talking about instinctive (ie., not learned) behaviour.
Could these "further mechanisms" be learning as well?
But sure, learning is an important part of human brain development, but I'm talking about the unlearned stuff specifically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by zi ko, posted 12-19-2011 11:08 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by zi ko, posted 12-21-2011 6:49 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 56 of 83 (644869)
12-21-2011 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by zi ko
12-21-2011 6:49 AM


Re: the environment
How cam we be sure that leant behaviour ,repeated over many generations, is not finally ingrained to genetical structures so to be inherited and instinctive at the end?
I'm not sure. In fact I'm persuaded that it does in fact happen. I can't remember the name of the effect, but the idea that organisms that learn ideas quickly have greater success - the faster the better- and this continues until it is no longer even required for the behaviour to be learned at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by zi ko, posted 12-21-2011 6:49 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by zi ko, posted 12-21-2011 12:42 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 58 of 83 (644895)
12-21-2011 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by zi ko
12-21-2011 12:42 PM


Re: the environment
If i understood it well , it seems that you believe that instincts in first place had been learned and so are not the result of mutations .
Then you haven't understood it well.
Some instincts may have originally been learned behaviour, but certainly not all instincts. And even those that are originally learned and later became instinctual did so as a result of mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by zi ko, posted 12-21-2011 12:42 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by zi ko, posted 12-22-2011 11:19 AM Modulous has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024