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Member (Idle past 3854 days) Posts: 390 From: Irvine, CA, United States Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does the universe have total net energy of zero? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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f it wasn't for weveryone else here, I'd wonder why I bother. I thought you were posting just for me. Seriously, I don't know of any other place I can go to get a real physicist to discuss this stuff on a regular week night. I suppose I really ought to thank designtheorist... And why does every crank think that they are Einstein toiling away examining patents or ...Galileo challenging the establishment. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1276 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
And why does every crank think that they are Einstein toiling away examining patents or ...Galileo challenging the establishment. When someone lacks even a basic understanding about an area of expertise in which they are expounding and lacks even the simplest grasp on the idea of logic, and everybody they share their ideas with thinks they're a kook, what other choice do they have?Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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And why does every crank think that they are Einstein toiling away examining patents or ...Galileo challenging the establishment. The less you know, the more you think you know. The more you know, the more you realize what you don't know.
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designtheorist Member (Idle past 3854 days) Posts: 390 From: Irvine, CA, United States Joined: |
There is a huge difference between amateur astronomers peering through telescopes and a layman claiming to understand cosmology better than cosmologists. I don't want you to think amateur astronomers are the only amateurs to make contributions to science. The article I linked did focus on astronomers because it is somewhat relevant, but amateurs make contributions in all kinds of fields. They have to put in tons of hours to be ready to make such a contribution, but it happens. Here's another story you might find interesting about a 17 year old girl and a competition which has resulted in a number of breakthroughs by teenagers. http://www.thenanoscience.com/?q=node/94
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2153 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Cavediver--any answer or comments to my earlier question of how flatness is related to zero net energy? We have experimental evidence of flatness, so if there's a relationship to zero net energy, this would help to give zero net energy some experimental grounding.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Aware Wolf Member (Idle past 1441 days) Posts: 156 From: New Hampshire, USA Joined: |
designtheorist writes: I don't want you to think amateur astronomers are the only amateurs to make contributions to science. The article I linked did focus on astronomers because it is somewhat relevant, but amateurs make contributions in all kinds of fields. They have to put in tons of hours to be ready to make such a contribution, but it happens. Let's stipulate that there are amateur scientists making contributions to theoretical physics and cosmology, after putting in "tons of hours". Are you one of them? Have you put in tons of hours? Do you have the math background necessary to make contributions?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Along the same lines as Aware Wolf's comment, I read the following in the article about the 17 year old:
quote: Do your efforts towards understanding cosmology sound anything like the effort this 17 year old has undertaken in understanding nanotechnology? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1276 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
But . . . but . . . amateur . . . . 17 . . . therefore I'm right!
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3985 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
cavediver writes: If it wasn't for everyone else here, I'd wonder why I bother. Speaking as one of everyone else here, thanks for bothering. You've disabused me of a number of confused notions: prying those away is like clearing barnacles from a keel. I may yet find some understanding."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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designtheorist Member (Idle past 3854 days) Posts: 390 From: Irvine, CA, United States Joined: |
I received a brief email from Dr. Krauss this week. He writes:
I don't visit forums, but I recommend the new book, A Universe from Nothing, where I elaborate extensively on the idea I mentioned in my lecture. I did not realize he had written a book on the subject so this is welcome info. BTW, sorry I have not been on for a while. Life is busy and I've been spending some of my time reading and researching this very interesting question. Can't wait to reduce it to a post here.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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Let me get this straight: you start a thread decrying theoretical physics, yet you didn't even realize the one of the foremost current theoretical physicists had written a book on the subject you created a thread about? Next you're gonna say you don't know who Michio Kaku is.....
Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas
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designtheorist Member (Idle past 3854 days) Posts: 390 From: Irvine, CA, United States Joined: |
You are not going to see any such thing because you will not allow it. Once you've acknowledged that energy contributes to the warping of space, unless you are capable of calculating the effect of dark energy on both gravitational energy and on the expansion of space, then you should understand that your musings on dark energy contributing significantly to the net energy calculation aren't going to persuade anyone, because they are going to be wrong. I think Modulus has already made the same point. Further, your opinion that kinetic and thermal energy are unaccounted for is also clearly wrong. I am convinced the effect of dark energy on the gravitational field has to be quantified. The effects of dark energy clearly swamp the effects of gravity since the expansion of the universe is accelerating. It is like me throwing a ball in the air and telling you that you have to quantify the effects of gravity are greater than the force of the thrown ball before someone will believe it. You can watch the ball fall from the sky. Who are you going to believe? The calculations or your eyes as you watch the ball fall from the sky? Your unsupported claim that kinetic and thermal energy are accounted for is not persuasive. Where's your evidence?
Maybe it was controversial at the turn of the century (i.e. early 20th century). Even E=mc*c was controversial in some circles. But wouldn't it be more controversial for gravitational energy to simply disappear when energy was converted away from mass? That's an implication of your proposal that photons don't warp space-time. I did a little looking around on this and there is some controversy at least.
Light traveling freely in space does not produce a gravitational field - contrary to most "establishment" thinking. Because the "Interval" of light = zero, light has no specific location in spacetime, and hence cannot provide a definite center for such a field. Since an uncentered gravitational field violates energy (and symmetry) conservation (including the "Equivalence Principle"), light moving freely in vacuum cannot and does not produce a gravitational field. This result is important for theories attempting to unify gravity with the other forces. - John A. Gowan - "Dark Energy": Does Light Produce a Gravitational Field? Dark Energy: Light and Gravity The ‘acceleration’ (or reduced deceleration) of the expansion of the Cosmos is caused by the expansive entropic property (intrinsic dimensional motion) of light, combined with a reduction of the total gravitational energy of the Cosmos. This expansive combination is the "dark energy" or "cosmological constant" producing the observed acceleration (which should have been anticipated if we had realized that light does not produce a gravitational field). In any case, it seems obvious that this "cosmic acceleration" constitutes the observational evidence that light, traveling freely in spacetime at velocity c, does not and cannot produce a gravitational field. John A. Gowan - "Dark Energy": Does Light Produce a Gravitational Field? Dark Energy: Light and Gravity I don't know if he is right. He clearly identifies this position as outside the establishment. Sometimes it is good to look outside the establishment way of thinking on things.
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designtheorist Member (Idle past 3854 days) Posts: 390 From: Irvine, CA, United States Joined: |
Try here. Berman, Marcelo Samuel (2009). "On the Zero-energy Universe". International Journal of Theoretical Physics 48 (11): 3278 Let me know if you find any mistakes in his math. While some people may consider this an interesting paper, I do not. It is not dealing with actual observations, measurements and calculations. It is dealing with theoretical concepts such as pseudo-tensors which some people disapprove of in the context of GR. At one place he writes:
Now, the energy of the Universe, can be calculated at constant time coordinate t . In par- ticular, the result would be the same as when t → ∞ , or, even when t → 0. His calculation is not falsifiable because it is not possible to observe the universe at either of these points in time. I would be satisfied if he would do the calculation at the present point in time.
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designtheorist Member (Idle past 3854 days) Posts: 390 From: Irvine, CA, United States Joined: |
Energy interacts with gravity in the same way that mass does. This would refute all your ideas about Dark Energy making the positive energy exceed the negative energy of the gravitational field. Yet you dismiss the idea without offering any rebuttal. I don't need a rebuttal. Dark energy does not interact with gravity in the same way that mass does. It is patently absurd to state otherwise since the antigravity effects are clear to see.
Firstly that does NOT in any way justify your refusal to even acknowledge the point, You cannot reasonably assume that any feature of General Relativity will be completely negated. In fact the reverse is true - any viable replacement theory will be very close to GR in many ways, so we should expect this feature to remain largely unchanged. I never said it would be completely negated just as Newtonian physics were not completely negated with the ascendancy of GR.
Secondly, in the Big Bang thread you attacked Hawking precisely BECAUSE he was dealing with some of the modifications required. That is exactly where Hawking's elimination of the singularity came from, another point that you refused to acknowledge because it contradicted your own (unsupported) ideas about his motivation. Make your mind up. Is General Relativity absolutely right so that we must accept the existence of a singularity - or does it need changing so that there may not have been a singularity in the first place ? I disagreed with Hawking. I didn't attack him. (You don't attack a man in man in a wheelchair!) I disagreed because Hawking claimed by getting rid of the singularity he was getting rid of the finite age of the universe. It is untenable viewpoint.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Your unsupported claim that kinetic and thermal energy are accounted for is not persuasive. Where's your evidence? My claim is completely supported by the material I've already provided. Kinetic energy, and thermal energy which is essentially the kinetic energy of particles, are accounted for in the energy momentum tensor. In fact, any form of energy that has a mass equivalent, as well as momentum, pressure, and shear, are all accounted for in Tab. I'm sure that at least three of us have explained that to you in various amounts of detail. You have presented zero evidence or argument in rebuttal.
I am convinced the effect of dark energy on the gravitational field has to be quantified. I know that you are not convinced. You are unwilling to take on the effort of learning the theory that you denigrate. I can, however, point out why you shouldn't be taken seriously. You know doodly point squat about the topic in question. Your method of accounting for dark energy is completely dependent on a belief that energy has no gravitational effect. And we know that principle is wrong. We also know that the effect of dark matter is not merely to add a positive effect that proportionately cancels the gravitational effect of gravity, because over huge scales, gravity does bind objects together. Dark energy only overwhelms gravity over super cosmic scales. Edited by NoNukes, : Add additional information re dark matter.
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