Summations Only

I have noticed that many religious people seem to believe that they hold some sort of moral high ground. They seem to believe that because they follow the teachings of a particular faith, they automatically become superior to others when it comes to interpretation of scripture, moral and ethical judgements etcOne of the reasons for this claim often stems from the idea that their particular religion or religion in general has a lower kill rate than no religion.Portillo provided this claim in Message 87I have heard this claim made many times. I have seen it brought up in debates and now it appears here.I would like to challenge those who believe this to be true to support it.

Thread copied here from the Moral high ground thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Thread moved here per Butterfly Tyrants request.Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

Something else along these lines that I think follows from this or is a cause of this, is that of faith as a virtue. I have been meaning to create a thread about it but I haven't found a need for it.

This thread reminded me that it is time for me to change my forum signature.

One of the problems with claiming some moral high ground for Christianity is that the evidence just flat refutes it.No nation, no other religion or belief system does genocide on the scale of Christianity or with as much success as Christianity.From the very moment Christianity was adopted as a State Religion by Constantine it has been spread by force and by the simple step of totally destroying all remnants of any competing culture, belief, religion or philosophy or by adopting the cultural event and commandeering it to support Christianity.It has had one simply message; if you are not Christian convert or suffer the consequences both in this life and for eternity.

Could this be refuted by pointing out that something like 80% of people believe in some type of god? That this is probably an all time low and so throughout history at least 80% of the people actually doing the killing were probably theists. Stalin may have been an atheist but I doubt that all of his henchmen were.

I've had it put to me that atheists must be amoral (because morals come from god), that believers must be more moral than me because they believe in God and one even said that there was nothing stopping him raping and murdering except for his belief in god and an afterlife.The trouble with all these people is that they're universally stupid.

ROFL! 100,000,000 divided by 10,000 = 10,000, the last I looked. I Samuel 18:7 tells us, inerrantly, of course: As they danced, they sang: Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.Portillo, are you out there? Would you care to respond, before we start on the Crusades, "ethnic cleansing," the Hundred Years' War, the invasion of the New World, the spread of Islam,.........?

Um can some one show me an atheistic regime?Hitlers reigime well no, his whole idea was based on doing gods workStalin, Yea sounds verry atheistic to me he dint alowe worhip of gods but hey that dosent mean he dint love worhip of him.north korea well i think their leader got 11 holes in one while playing golf for the first time, again a noter cult of personality.But one could count america as having an atheistic regime you know the whole seperation of curch and state buisnes. Ok i know its a bad example cause you torture andkill people today , but i dont see any corelation between atheism and killing people. I do se a corelation between religion and killing people but that could be because its easy to manipulate people with religion, and that is why it is used so often to make people do bad things.

Hey folks,Sorry about the big cut and paste but here goes -

quote:

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Killed by God

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? -- Drowned everyone in the whole world except for Noah and his family (Genesis 7)

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1 -- Saltified Lot's wife (Genesis 19:26)

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? -- Burned all of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (except for "good" Lot who offered his virgin daughters to a mob of men and then slept with both of them himself later)

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1 -- Slew Er, Judah's firstborn son (Genesis 38:7)

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1 -- Killed Er's brother, Onan because he spilled semen on the ground so as not to conceive offspring for his brother's wife whom he was forced to marry (Genesis 38:9-10)

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? -- The firstborn in all of Egypt (Exodus 12:29)

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? -- Drowned the pharoah and all of his gang in the Red Sea (Exodus 14:26-28)

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2 -- Nadab and Abihu for making a fire

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? -- Burned some Jews for complaining

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? -- Sent a plague against Jews for being greedy

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11 -- Sent a plague on Jews who gave the chosen land a bad report

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? -- Korah and other Jews who didn't like Moses

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? -- The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and

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their families because they had been rebellious (Numbers 16:27-33)

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250 -- A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men (Numbers 16:35)

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14,700 -- Sent a plague on Jews apparently for the hell of it (Numbers 16:49)

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"many" -- Sent serpents on Jews (Numbers 21:6)

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24,000 -- Plague killed Jews who followed Baal (Numbers 25:9)

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? -- Philistines

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50,070 -- Jews who looked in the ark of the covenant (1 Samuel 6:19)

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1 -- Nabal for scorning David

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1 -- Uzzah for touching the ark when trying to keep it from falling

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1 -- David and Bathsheba's child

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70,000 -- Sent a pestilence because David sinned (2 Samuel 24:15)

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51 -- Fire from heaven consumes the prophets of Baal (2 Kings 1:10-12)

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102 -- Sent fire down on Ahaziah's men

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42 -- Sent bears to kill children who mocked Elisha (2 Kings 2:23-24)

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? -- Sent lions to kill invaders

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185,000 -- Assyrians (2 Kings 19:35)

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80,000 -- Lots of bad Israelites

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___________________________________________

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399,933 + ? -- Total killed by God!

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Killed on God's orders by his followers

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? -- Jacob's sons killed every man in Shechem

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3,000 -- Jews worshipping the golden calf (Exodus 32:27-29)

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1 -- Man gathering wood on the Sabbath Day (Numbers 15:32-36)

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? -- Canaan (Numbers 21:3)

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? -- The Lord commands Moses to kill the people and expose them in broad daylight so that the Lord's anger may be turned away from Israel (Numbers 25:4)

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? -- Took the city of Heshbon from the Amorites

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? -- All of the people of Bashan

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? -- All Midianites except for the virgin girls (Numbers 31:17-18)

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? -- The Israelites destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon leaving no survivors after the Lord gave them over to them (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)

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? -- The Israelites destroy the men, women, and children of Og after the Lord gave them over to them (Deuteronomy 3:6)

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? -- Everyone in Jericho but Rahab, a hooker who betrayed her city (Joshua 6:21-27)

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? -- Achan and his family (who had nothing to do with it) for stealing (Joshua 7:19-26)

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12,000 -- Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai with the God's approval (Joshua 8:22-25)

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? -- Everyone in the cities of Ai, Amalek, Makkedah, Libnath, Lachish, Egnolites,

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Jarmuth, Geder, Hebronites, Debirites, Hormah, Arad, Addellam, Bethel,

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Tappuah, Hepher, Apheh, Lasheron, Madon, Tasnach, Megiddo, Kedesh,

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Jokneam, Dor, Goiim, Terzah, Gibeonites and all of the Amorites.

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10,000 -- Canaanites of Bezek (Judges 1:4)

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10,000 -- The Israelites kill the Moabites with the help of the Lord (Judges 3:29)

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? -- The people of Jerusalem, Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai

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? -- The people of Zephath, Gaza, Ashkelon, Ekron, and the king of Moab, Eglon.

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? -- The army of Sisera and the men of Karkor

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? -- Jephthah destroyed 20 cities

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30 -- The Spirit of the Lord comes Samson and causes him to slay thirty men

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(Judges 14:19)

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1000 -- Under the Spirit of the Lord, Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass (Judges 15:15)

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3000 -- Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women (Judges 16: 27-30)

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50,100 -- The men of the tribe of Benjamin (Judges 20:35, 43-48)

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? -- The tribe of Jabesh-gilead

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? -- The Ammonites, the Philistines and the Amelekites

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331,269 -- David killed a whole bunch of people

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3 -- Solomon killed a few people too

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? -- All of Jeroboam's extended family

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? -- All of Baasha's extended family

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450 -- Prophets of Baal

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793,000 -- All Jewish Baal-followers

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127,000 -- Arameans slain by the Israelites with the help of the Lord (1 Kings 20:28-30)

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1 -- Man who wouldn't strike a prophet

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? -- Moabites

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172 -- Jezebel, Ahab's sons, Joram, their priests, and their friends

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142 -- Ahaziah's relatives

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? -- The sacrifice of the firstborn of Israel so that the Lord might horrify them.

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? -- All of Baal's followers

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1 -- Athaliah for killing sons

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1 -- Mattan the Baal priest

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10,002 -- Edomites and two servents

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? -- All of the pregnant women in Tirzah

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20,000 -- Hezekiah killed a bunch of people

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500,000 -- Israelites killed each other

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50,000 -- Ethiopians

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23,000 -- Seerites

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510 -- Haman's army

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75,300 -- More of the army

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___________________________________________

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2,017,956 + ? -- Total killed by God's followers under his orders!

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So the grand total comes to:

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399,933 Killed by God

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+ 2,017,956 Killed by God’s followers

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= 2,417,889 + ? people killed by God and his followers under his orders PLUS an unknown amount which probably number into the millions, including the whole world at the time of Noah, and over 60 whole cities!

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Source:http://www.angelfire.com/ky/nogod/deathtoll.htmland similar source:Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?, page 1It would seem to be an odd position to attempt to position yourself just above people like Hitler or Stalin and claim the moral high ground.So far, from the above count we have a bare minimum of 2.5 million. I would welcome any estimates of the amount of people killed in the flood, the firstborn of Israel and other figures marked with a question mark.If we have a conservative estimate for this, we can ask the other team to begin their task by equalling the death toll in their holy book.

I would like to see support for the idea that the US killed more people than Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany, although you will try and tell us that Hitler was a Christian...(Though we in the club know better)

EDITED per admins requestfrom mein kampf translation god is with us Stuf gotten from http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htmThere is more evidence on the fact that hitler was christian or claiming to be christian then there is for evolution and we all know evolution is true You can find the same information that i previusly posted in the wall of quotes on the above site. Edited by frako, : No reason given.Edited by frako, : No reason given.Edited by frako, : No reason given.

yes, but he obviously was not a real Christian, seeing as a real one would have the Holy, rather than the unholy spirit.

Phat, you gotta know at your long time here at the forum that this response doesn't work with non-Christians. "No true scottsman" will be the response.People know Hitler wasn't actually doing Gods work by killing the Jews, who incidently were Gods chosen people, duh.Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.