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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
Taz
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 61 of 318 (644830)
12-21-2011 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Modulous
12-20-2011 6:46 PM


Bush for years very vocally and openly supported throwing people in jail for homosexual acts. Christians (in my area at least) love to use GWB as an example of a real christian. I highly doubt you can apply "temporary" to what equates to as years.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4273 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


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(2)
Message 62 of 318 (644834)
12-21-2011 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Butterflytyrant
12-18-2011 6:50 PM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
Biblical atrocities are fictional. Myths and fables.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 397 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 63 of 318 (644837)
12-21-2011 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Chuck77
12-20-2011 7:54 PM


What I mean by true Christian being a follower of Christ is doing what He tells us in the NT. The Great Commision, laying hands on the sick, giving people hope, living a rightoues life thru Him. Our faith in Jesus and us commiting our lives to Him will show by our actions. Sometimes we mess up but not by murdering millions of Gods chosen people. I'm not sure how that can be implied that Hitler was a follower of Christ by murdering His own people.
Perhaps you could address my Martin Luther quote. Would you count the father of Protestantism as a Christian?

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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 64 of 318 (644841)
12-21-2011 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
12-20-2011 10:24 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
Or how guns are responsible for firearm related deaths?
*runs away and takes cover*
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.
Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.

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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 65 of 318 (644850)
12-21-2011 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
12-21-2011 4:06 AM


Don't Stray
Participants:
Please don't let the true Christian issue take over the topic. My suggestion (not an edict) is to use the dictionary definition of a Christian for the purpose of this thread.
Do not let this issue drag out much longer.
Also remember this isn't a chat page. Too many short posts.
As usual, do not respond to this message.
Thanks
AdminPD

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 914 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 66 of 318 (644853)
12-21-2011 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Portillo
12-21-2011 3:57 AM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
All the bad stuff like warring tribes in ancient desert killing one another in the name of their particular deity (which, btw, still happens to this day)? Myth and fable.
Jesus' life (of which there is ZERO contemporary evidence), the flood (again, no evidence), talking snakes and all the good stuff? True, actually happened and how dare you question it.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 914 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
(2)
Message 67 of 318 (644854)
12-21-2011 8:09 AM


PD writes:
Too many short posts
And yet you "cheer" the shortest of them all.... just because it agrees with you. Psst, your bias is showing.

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 68 of 318 (644859)
12-21-2011 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Portillo
12-21-2011 3:57 AM


Re: I have some data from the Bible to put on the table
While it is true that many of the stories in the Bible are simply myths and fables; and the stories where there is some reason to think did actually happen it is pretty certain that accounts are both exaggerated and slanted to fit the authors position, the genocide committed by Christianity since Biblical times is pretty well documented.
Christianity simply has never played nicely with any other belief system and seldom even plays nicely with other Christians.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 69 of 318 (644867)
12-21-2011 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taz
12-21-2011 2:28 AM


Bush for years very vocally and openly supported throwing people in jail for homosexual acts. Christians (in my area at least) love to use GWB as an example of a real christian. I highly doubt you can apply "temporary" to what equates to as years.
One suspects that those same Christians you refer to do not regard throwing homosexuals in jail as being immoral. Therefore Bush is moral. Therefore, a True Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Taz, posted 12-21-2011 2:28 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Taz, posted 12-21-2011 2:03 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 70 of 318 (644885)
12-21-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by subbie
12-20-2011 10:47 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
Certainly, whether the people have the liberty to act or not should be a factor in determining the level of responsibility they have.
And how much responsibility we can ascribe to the religion...
I don't think we can get a good number on the amount of deaths "caused by christianity" or anything like that.
You don't know when it was actually religiously motivated or not.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 71 of 318 (644907)
12-21-2011 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Modulous
12-21-2011 10:43 AM


Haha, I was kinda expecting chuck or phat to admit this.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 914 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 72 of 318 (644914)
12-21-2011 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2011 11:48 AM


Re: Genocide is more than just killing.
You don't know when it was actually religiously motivated or not.
Even if we grant that just for sake of argument, we can attribute enough atrocities that we know were directly attributed to relgiosity throughout history to say, without hesitation, that religion does not have the so called moral high ground it claims it has. We can give enough examples of people who either commited atrocities in the name of religion, or who were religious, to say that morality is irrespective of religion.

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2011 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 318 (644923)
12-21-2011 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by hooah212002
12-21-2011 2:28 PM


we can attribute enough atrocities that we know were directly attributed to relgiosity throughout history
So lets take a Crusade, shit-tons of mulsims killed in the name of Christianity, right? So, this one Crusader kills this one muslim. Did he do it in the name of religion? Was he forced into his situation and then had to defend himself? Did the religion really motivate his killing? Can we really say?
Now, if you zoom out, you could ascribe religious motivation the whole battle, but then we're getting into religion being the tool used by those in power to control the individuals... and that ain't really the religions fault either.
religion does not have the so called moral high ground it claims it has. We can give enough examples of people who either commited atrocities in the name of religion, or who were religious, to say that morality is irrespective of religion.
So if you focus on the bad things that people do, I too doubt you'll be able to find dependency on religiousity.
But what if you look at the motivations towards the good things that people do?
I think every hospital here in St. Louis is tied to some particular religion. Too, the shelters and food pantries are as well.
I think its easier to ascribe the moral goodness to the actual religion, itself, than it is the badness, because I don't see a lot of moral badness being proscribed as tenets of religion... And the individuals usually follow the tenets.

This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(2)
Message 74 of 318 (644930)
12-21-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2011 3:06 PM


So lets take a Crusade, shit-tons of mulsims killed in the name of Christianity, right? So, this one Crusader kills this one muslim. Did he do it in the name of religion? Was he forced into his situation and then had to defend himself? Did the religion really motivate his killing? Can we really say?
Well we can really say that atrocities commited by the Templars where because of religion. Noone was forced to be a templar, in order to be one you had to be a Knight and give all your belongins to the Templar order aka only religius fanatics would do that. And the Templars served directly under the Pope. So in the case of the Templars you can definitivly say it was religions fault.
In the case of hitler one can make the same case but hasto take in to account the 400 year propaganda against the jews in europe supported by kings and popes alike. As to why there was a haterd for the jews in europe you have the chiken and the eg question christians hated them because they where money lenders and that was a big no no way up on the list of no nos like a woman wearing pants no no. But they where moneylenders because noone let them do anything else because they dint like them. Hitler used this hatred for the jews to gain favore with the curch and to rally the people to his cause.
Now, if you zoom out, you could ascribe religious motivation the whole battle, but then we're getting into religion being the tool used by those in power to control the individuals... and that ain't really the religions fault either.
Fanatic religius leader: kill all americans cause god says so he gave me a vision we should strike now!!!!
his flock:" killem killem arrrrrrrrrrrgggggg!!!!"
Atheist: What did you eat when you had the vision? Did you consume any halucinogens? Whats your temperature you might be having health problems causing your visions.
But what if you look at the motivations towards the good things that people do?
So there are no Atheist organisations that help people???
Effort Sisyphus: Atheist Charities
This site says otherwise
think every hospital here in St. Louis is tied to some particular religion. Too, the shelters and food pantries are as well.
Isnt it nice how they have a mass for the homles first where they haveto wait in huger for an hour before they are given food.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 914 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 75 of 318 (644931)
12-21-2011 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2011 3:06 PM


Did he do it in the name of religion?
Yes. A million times yes. What was the entire purpose of the Crusades, CS? To spread christinity to the heathens. How did they do it? Through violence and murder.
but then we're getting into religion being the tool used by those in power to control the individuals... and that ain't really the religions fault either.
You must have some weird definition of religion that I am unfamiliar with. Every atrocity performed in the name of religion has at least some basis on some bastardization of some millenia old text. Religion is that interpratation.
So if you focus on the bad things that people do, I too doubt you'll be able to find dependency on religiousity.
I beg to differ.
Let's just look at history's Persecution of Muslims. There is far too much there for me to quote, but all of those were done under the guise of religion.
Let us also look at The Lord's Resistance Army:
Wiki writes:
The Lord's Resistance Army (also Lord's Resistance Movement or Lakwena Part Two) is a militant group with a syncretic Christian and traditional African religious ideology. The group operates in northern Uganda, South Sudan, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Central Africa.[4] The group used to operate mainly in northern Uganda and also in parts of South Sudan, the Central African Republic, and the DRC.
The LRA was formed in 1987 and until about 2007 it was engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the group believes can represent itself in many manifestations.
The group is based on a number of different beliefs including local religious rituals, mysticism, traditional religion, Acholi nationalism and Christianity[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] and claims to be establishing a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and local Acholi tradition.[15][16][17] The LRA is accused of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual enslavement of women and children and forcing children to participate in hostilities.[18].
Wiki writes:
In January, 1997 the LRA attacked Lamwo, in northern Uganda. More than 400 people were killed, and approximately 100,000 people were displaced.[24]
In May, 2002 the LRA attacked Eastern Equatoria in Sudan. An estimated 450 people were killed, and witnesses state some villagers were forced to walk off a cliff.[24]
On December 25, 2008, the LRA massacred 189 people and abducted 120 children during a concert celebration sponsored by the Catholic church in Faradje, DRC, continuing the attack on December 26. Shortly afterwards, the LRA struck three additional communities: 75 people killed in a church north of Dungu, and the church burned; 48 people killed in Bangadi, and 213 people in Gurba.[25] The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs estimated the death toll as 189 in Faradje, Doruma and Gurba.[25] However, Caritas International estimated the number of victims to be about 500.
Also we have the Albigensian Crusade
Wiki writes:
The Albigensian Crusade or Cathar Crusade (1209—1229) was a 20-year military campaign initiated by the Catholic Church to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc.
But what if you look at the motivations towards the good things that people do?
Yes, let's. Every good deed done in the name of religion can be done by secular affairs. It just so happens that religious orginizations are more readily set up and able to do so, what with all of the leway they have been granted throughout the centuries.
And the individuals usually follow the tenets.
And the individuals following the tenets that say to stone adulterers and apostates? What about the individuals killing warring factions over land that god gave them?

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

This message is a reply to:
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