Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9038 total)
88 online now:
kjsimons, Percy (Admin), Tangle (3 members, 85 visitors)
Newest Member: Barry Deaborough
Post Volume: Total: 885,688 Year: 3,334/14,102 Month: 275/724 Week: 33/91 Day: 1/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Hebrew Bible (Butterflytyrant and IamJoseph Only)
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2569 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 33 of 43 (640881)
11-14-2011 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Butterflytyrant
11-13-2011 11:37 AM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
quote:
When did 158/7 BCE become the 3ed centruy BCE?

Its not 2nd C; once it passes the last, it is stated as the next century.

quote:

Eupolemus was a Jewish historian

Since when is a Jewish historian an independent source for information about Judaism?


Ok, I'll giver you that if you wish. He was a Greek Jew, representing what his saw around him; does not mean what he says is incorrect?

quote:

It claims the five books were written by Moses, who introduced alphabetical writings to the Israelites, and that this was passed on to the Phoenecians, then to the Greeks.

So we have a Jew, talking up Judaism at least 500 years after the various writers put together the Old Testament.


What various writers!? We know that the Gospels and Quran had many writers, and this would not negatively impact the Hebrew if this was the case with the Hebrew bible. But it is not the case as per the texts, and untill you have proof of other writers, you cannot hold that view as a fact or present it as a counter.

quote:

Also, the information is wrong. Paleo Hebrew, the writing that evolved into modern day Hebrew came from the Phonecian or proto canaanie script. Greek rose from the Phonecian script as well.

Here are the sources that verify that information -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo_Hebrew
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language


You know that the phoenecians are an older people: where are their alphabetical books!? Are you aware the Phonecians did not possess the V alphabet, this is introduced in the Hebrew? Are you aware the Hebrews did not interact with the phonecians till well after they returned to Canaan - five Mosaic books already in hand? Are you also aware the phonecians had extensive interactions in the times of Solomon, even a joint navy and commerce partnership - and that the five books were already completed at this time; the psalms completed, and the book of kings in process; the temple also standing as per the criteria in the Mosaic books?

quote:

I have held this view in opposition to the widespread acceptance of it...

in opposition to all of the language and liguistic professionals who actually know what they are talking about.



Correct.. I made this point as a clarification.

quote:

Just because you dont look for evidence does not mean it is not there. A simple wiki search supplies plenty of evidence to contradict your position.

In fact I researched it throughly and found loads of anomalies. Didn't you?

quote:

Such a relic gives credibility to the Hebrew writings.

A Jew talking about Judaism gives credibility to the Hebrew writings? Thats like saying a born again christian gives credability to young earth creationsim.


There is a hard copy original writings in place - how about factoring that in instead? The Hebrew writings are humanity's most trusted writings, proven more substantially than any other by science and the earth spitting out its proof: which other writings can match it? On what basis are you making your derogatory remarks - and boasting of it?

quote:

If we read there was a war with Egypt and the Hebrews, it is evidenced in an Egyptian stone relic, with the mention of the word 'Israel' and 'war' dated 3,500 years ago. Beat that!

From your source -

The Merneptah Stele — also known as the Israel Stele or Victory Stele of Merneptah — is an inscription by the Ancient Egyptian king Merneptah (reign:1213 to 1203 BC)

When did 1203 BCE become 3500 years ago? It is actually around 3200 but whats a mere three centuries huh?


The stelle is 3200, representing a war 'after' the Israelites settled in Cannan; the writings of the Hebrew bible is 3500. The latter is affirmed by the former.

quote:

The Stelle mentions a people or place named Israel. Great. What does this prove?


It proves a people and place named Israel over 3000 years ago, aligning with a 3500 year writings. Please show us an equivalent example elsewhere?

quote:

Also, the Stelle is in [bold]HEIROGLYPHICS[/bold].

Remember your arguments about heiroglyphics?

How come you are happy to use heiroglyphics when they suit your purposes to say that there is "mention of the word 'Israel' and 'war'" but when I use heiroglyphics they are mere pictures that are not possible to accurately translate?


You can use heiro to prove a case; but you cannot posit it as alphabetifcal. Heiro is picture writings; it fell away because it accumulated over 7000 images as letters, becoming unusable. The Hebrew could not use picture writings because these contained images of worships; thus it appears Moses introduced an abstract mode of writings and alphabetical books were born. There is no alphabetical book even 800 years after the Hebrew bible, based on the text's submission when this was written. So it could not have come from the phonecians. Nor could it have come from the Canaanites - this was a vasal state of egypt and both never had a shred of alphabeticals.

quote:

Firstly, the detail of Mount Nebo is geographically and historically correct; secondly it is the first recording of this stat; the ds scrolls alone suffices here. Moab did not even have writings till relatively recent times.

So a guy in 400 BCE mentions a mountain in his writings. Great. What are you trying to prove with this?


Where's the 400 BCE come from? Yes, the first recording of a historical/geographical icon infers credibility. One can almost imagine Moses standing at the top of this mountain and having a grand vista of the land before him - exactly as described in the text. You are inferring this is all myth and fable; I see loads of factual truth embedded here.

quote:
You said that the word Israel is "only known today via the Hebrew bible exclusively" but in the same post you used an example of an Egyptian stelle that mentioned the word Israel. Do you know what exclusively means? From your reply I think you are having language problems. Are you saying that the Egyptians who inscribed the Stelle read the Hebrew Bible?

I have no language problem, and your position of a relic mentioning the word Israel as an anomaly is without any credibility. The relic proves the veracity of the Hebrew writings - you failed to acknowledge this and went on to reidicule it! Who has the problem here!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-13-2011 11:37 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 3:09 AM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2569 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 35 of 43 (640900)
11-14-2011 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Butterflytyrant
11-14-2011 3:09 AM


Re: How about biting the bullet?
quote:
Start with a reply to Message 16. It covers the reasons why few scholars think that Moses wrote the Pentateuch and the reasons they do not believe it was written 3500 years ago.

I have studied those scholars' 'THINK' stuff. They are as bogus as their previous claims of King David. BTW, are you not aware the Hebrew bible itself states the burial of Moses will never be found?

You have to impress yourself why we have no alphabetical books older than the Hebrew - and picture writings don't cut it!

quote:

The move onto replying to Message 17 discussing your claim that the Old Testament is the firsy recording of the universe being finite .


Its in the correct protocol too. The opening verse - stated before anything yet existed in the universe.

quote:

Then a reply to Message 18 discussing your claims regarding the Old Testament grouping animals into species.

Yes of course - everyone can read this in Genesis' creation chapter. Amazingly, not only are the life forms listed in their correct order of emergence, but also in the most fundamental grouping categories which seperate life forms, namely not by skeletal and dna, but by terrain and habitat. This is correct: the first thing we see between a zebra and a fish is one is a land based life form, the other a water borne.

quote:

Then you can have a go at providing a sensible response to Message 19. Your claims that heiroglyphics do not show a recording of day are invalid and I have supplied sufficient evidence to support this.


People always knew about a day. But it was designated as such, in its origination and place structure - in Genesis. Namely, it was evening and morning - one day; this means a day is the setting [not rising!] of the sun, followed by the sun's rising [Genesis]. The 7 day week was also introduced here as a special period impacting biology and the earth's environment.

I would rather discuss the mystery of the Hebrew bible - and how a bunch of nomads got it so right. This requires an open, unbiased, uneffected mind - minus the BS which has been poured into the minds and souls of the masses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 3:09 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 7:00 AM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2569 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 37 of 43 (640934)
11-14-2011 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Butterflytyrant
11-14-2011 7:00 AM


Re: How about biting the bullet?
I do not want to debate this anymore. Clearly, I lost.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 7:00 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-15-2011 9:04 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2569 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 40 of 43 (644993)
12-22-2011 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by RCS
12-22-2011 6:36 AM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
Hm. How come I get emails if I'm banned - which was without any notice either? Its a malfunction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RCS, posted 12-22-2011 6:36 AM RCS has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021