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Author Topic:   A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture
ICANT
Member (Idle past 134 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 61 of 304 (645042)
12-22-2011 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by GDR
12-03-2011 6:41 PM


Re: Confusion
Hi GDR,
GDR writes:
He is being punished for the slaughter of the people of Jezreel. Hosea is extremely clear on that.
Could you show me where the text says Jehu is being or going to be punished for anything?
from Hosea 1:
quote:
4 And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel ; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."
GDR writes:
We are called to be God's loving agents and as part of that we are to trust that God's perfect will be done, but on His schedule not ours.
Agreed.
But at the time Hosea is talking about God is preserving a particular people whom the messiah would come through so we could benefit from having God in a flesh body to be our sacrifice to restore us to the kind of a relationship the first man had in the Garden before he chose to disobey God's direct command.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 12-03-2011 6:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 10:32 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 134 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 62 of 304 (645049)
12-22-2011 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
12-21-2011 8:49 AM


Christian
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
For by grace are ye saved through faith.
But being saved by grace does not make you a christian.
It just makes you a born again child of the King who is unworthy of being saved by the grace of God.
I have been saved by the grace of God for 62 years and I still don't consider myself a christian.
To be a christian is to be living a life like Christ did. I don't measure up to that yet, I am still working on it and He is still working on me.
quote:
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
It doesn't seem to indicate that they called themselves Christians. But that they were called Christians by the people of the world. As I understand it they were called little Cristos's. The word Christian was used by Agrippa telling Paul that he had almost presuaded him to be a Christian, and by Peter talking about suffering as a Christian.
My definition of a Christian is someone who is living a life like Christ did. He was perfect I can't be perfect yet, and I haven't met anyone in person that is perfect.
God Bless,
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2011 8:49 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:23 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 134 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 63 of 304 (645051)
12-22-2011 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Granny Magda
12-22-2011 2:29 AM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Hi GM,
Granny Magda writes:
For example, he would have believed in Mosaic authorship, a major mistake.
Why would Paul be making a major mistake. He would be in good company with Abraham and Jesus.
Abraham was a lot closer to Moses than Paul was and he said:
quote:
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Jesus is the one who is saying what Abraham said so He also believes Moses wrote the Torah, as He is the one that gave it to Moses.
If Jesus believed Moses wrote the Torah, that is good enough for me.
You have your privilege of believing whatever you desire too.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Granny Magda, posted 12-22-2011 2:29 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:29 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:35 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 86 by Granny Magda, posted 12-24-2011 7:08 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 134 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 64 of 304 (645052)
12-22-2011 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by GDR
12-22-2011 11:13 AM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Hi GDR,
GDR writes:
it would have been difficult for Moses to write the part of the Torah after he was dead.
Why would it have been difficult for Moses to write of his death.
He was fortold he was not going to enter the promised land because he had disobeyed God by smiting the rock instead of speaking to the rock as instructed.
He wrote a song the day he died and finished the book of the law according to the text.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 11:13 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 12-22-2011 10:42 PM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 65 of 304 (645053)
12-22-2011 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
12-22-2011 5:06 PM


Re: Christian
It just makes you a born again child of the King who is unworthy of being saved by the grace of God.
That makes no sense to me. Grace does not require worth. It is a gift from God.
I'm not going to debate the definition of Christian. I have no problem with your definition, but it does not affect the point I was making with DB. If you have no faith, you are not saved, and in such a case, doing good works doesn't make you a Christian, just a good man.
My definition of a Christian is someone who is living a life like Christ did. He was perfect I can't be perfect yet, and I haven't met anyone in person that is perfect.
So no one is living a life like Christ did, and thus there are no Christians.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 5:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 6:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 304 (645054)
12-22-2011 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ICANT
12-22-2011 5:45 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
quote:
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
This says nothing about authorship. What says that this statement isn't about the content of the scriptures rather than the authorship?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 5:45 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 6:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 304 (645055)
12-22-2011 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ICANT
12-22-2011 5:45 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Duplicate
Edited by NoNukes, : Operator error

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 5:45 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 134 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 68 of 304 (645056)
12-22-2011 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
12-22-2011 6:29 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
This says nothing about authorship. What says that this statement isn't about the content of the scriptures rather than the authorship?
If that was the case then why didn't Jesus say Abraham said, "Law and Prophets" if He didn't mean Moses wrote it?
Do you believe Jesus knew who wrote the Torah?
God Bless,
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:29 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 12-22-2011 7:33 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 9:29 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 134 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 69 of 304 (645057)
12-22-2011 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by NoNukes
12-22-2011 6:23 PM


Re: Christian
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
That makes no sense to me. Grace does not require worth. It is a gift from God.
That was my point.
The only thing that makes mankind worthy is the shed Blood of Jesus Christ that is applied to make them worthy.
NoNukes writes:
So no one is living a life like Christ did, and thus there are no Christians.
That sums it up pretty well.
We are supposed to be trying to live a life like Christ getting a little closer each day. He did say take up thy cross and follow me daily.
God Bless,
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 6:23 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2011 9:34 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Scanman
Junior Member (Idle past 4572 days)
Posts: 7
From: Fairmont, WV
Joined: 12-26-2009


Message 70 of 304 (645058)
12-22-2011 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dawn Bertot
12-11-2011 2:17 AM


Dawn writes:
For example how would you explain the instance in Acts chapter 5 where God immediately and summarily sentenced and executed Ananias and Sapphira, for simply lying about the land and the for the amount of money they alledgedly sold it for.
Did God write Acts?...no...Luke did...someone who wasn't even an eyewitness to the events he wrote about. Luke compiled what he believed to be reliable accounts...like a reporter.
Peace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-11-2011 2:17 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 71 of 304 (645063)
12-22-2011 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ICANT
12-22-2011 6:41 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
No, it is unlikely that Jesus had any idea who actually wrote any of the Torah.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 6:41 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 304 (645071)
12-22-2011 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ICANT
12-22-2011 6:41 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
If that was the case then why didn't Jesus say Abraham said, "Law and Prophets" if He didn't mean Moses wrote it?
Regardless of who wrote it, the Torah contains plenty of the words and deeds of Moses. Similarly, the Old Testament contains plenty of the words of the prophets, regardless of who actually wrote the books. The content of the scriptures enough to explain what Jesus said.
To justify the opposite it is necessary to postulate a whole bunch of stuff that is simply not Biblical at all. Dogma that God dictated the story of Adam and Eve to Moses is not Biblical. Nor is it Biblical that Moses knew the circumstances surrounding his own death.
Do you believe Jesus knew who wrote the Torah?
I don't believe Jesus ever said anything about the subject. I'm skeptical that Paul ever said anything about it either. Further, it is pretty clear that Jesus did not always use the powers accessible to Him. I don't know what Jesus would have said if, asked who wrote the Torah.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 6:41 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 304 (645073)
12-22-2011 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
12-22-2011 6:50 PM


Re: Christian
ICANT writes:
NoNukes writes:
So no one is living a life like Christ did, and thus there are no Christians.
That sums it up pretty well.
You can use that definition. When I speak of Christians, you can expect that I'll be using a less exclusive one, that includes people who attempt to follow Christ's pattern.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 6:50 PM ICANT has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 74 of 304 (645074)
12-22-2011 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ICANT
12-22-2011 3:51 PM


Which god do you choose?
ICANT writes:
Could you show me where the text says Jehu is being or going to be punished for anything?
Hosea says the house of Jehu will be punished. That would include Jehu. I think you’re trying to split hairs here.
ICANT writes:
But at the time Hosea is talking about God is preserving a particular people whom the messiah would come through so we could benefit from having God in a flesh body to be our sacrifice to restore us to the kind of a relationship the first man had in the Garden before he chose to disobey God's direct command.
The prophesy of Hosea concerning the punishment of the House of Jehu , which certainly appears not to have come to fruition, has nothing to do with preserving the culture.
However, let’s say for the sake of argument that it did. You are again creating a god where the ends justify the means. You have a god that is quite happy to have the people he loves be involved in the mass slaughter of their neighbours. He even seems to be content with them using lies and deceit in order to gain the trust of their victims in order to facilitate the slaughter. This god seems to show no concern for the fact that engaging in this slaughter can only harden the hearts of the people he is supposed to love.
I’d suggest that you re-read the Beatitudes and ask yourself if this sounds like the same god that we see incarnate in Jesus.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 3:51 PM ICANT has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 75 of 304 (645075)
12-22-2011 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
12-22-2011 5:59 PM


Re: The OT is Not a Christian Document
ICANT writes:
Why would it have been difficult for Moses to write of his death.
He was fortold he was not going to enter the promised land because he had disobeyed God by smiting the rock instead of speaking to the rock as instructed.
He wrote a song the day he died and finished the book of the law according to the text.
He also knew where he would be buried, and that the grave site would be lost forever. For that matter why is it written in the third person?
However, if the Torah is literally dictated by God, why does it even matter whether or not it was penned by Moses?

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2011 5:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2011 8:15 PM GDR has replied

  
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