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Author Topic:   Wright et al. on the Process of Mutation
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 245 of 296 (645221)
12-24-2011 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by zi ko
12-24-2011 9:54 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

Yes mutations are random to fitness but not random to life's preservation.

Those are the same thing.

They are not the same.

They're not precise synonyms, but they're based upon the same principle, and random mutations have the same effect on both. A random mutation that is deleterious with respect to fitness is also deleterious with respect to "life's preservation." Same for beneficial mutations. If you don't think this is true then name a random mutation that would be beneficial for one and deleterious for the other.

Mutations then are random to life preservation. So life has not any tendency to preserve itself.

You're forgetting selection again. Life produces many offspring, they compete for limited resources, the best succeed in contributing offspring to the next generation. Life that by the luck of the draw possess beneficial mutations will contribute more offspring to the next generation, and gradually those beneficial mutations will spread throughout the population.

The real question is if we believe or not it has the tendency and the ability to preserve itself.

Life has the ability to adapt to changing environments through the processes of mutation and natural selection.

Is this discussion about whether evolution is random related to the topic?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by zi ko, posted 12-24-2011 9:54 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by zi ko, posted 12-26-2011 12:54 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 248 of 296 (645333)
12-26-2011 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by zi ko
12-26-2011 12:54 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
Hi Zi Ko,

What we've been saying is that mutations are random with respect to adaptation. Natural selection, which resists the propagation of ill-adaptive mutations, is not random with respect to adaptation.

But now you've dropped into declarative mode and aren't even pretending to be interested in the
topic. Discussion of neural systems and information should have its own thread. I see that your thread proposal from 12/16 hasn't drawn a moderator response yet, so I'll look at it now.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by zi ko, posted 12-26-2011 12:54 AM zi ko has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 261 of 296 (648390)
01-15-2012 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by zi ko
01-15-2012 12:38 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

You want to switch freely between the randomness of mutations and the non-random nature of reproductive success. They are different things. One is not the other.

But are not they closely related, as they both tent to preserve life?

No. With random mutations, beneficial mutations are far outnumbered by those that are neutral or deleterious. In the absence of selection deleterious mutations would accumulate and reduce adaptation, the opposite of what you have chosen to call "preserving life."

Selection weeds out deleterious mutation and favors beneficial mutations, with the result that beneficial mutations tend to be preserved and spread throughout a population.

Without random mutation, selection would have no beneficial mutations to select.

Without selection, deleterious mutations would not be removed from a population.

"Guided" does not mean "unmistakable". What is anyway your evidence that information is not guiding evolution? What is your evidence against the case of information is co-acting in instinct formation? If you don't bring any incotrovertible evidence about it , then your opinion is just a belief , as mine's is

You have no evidence of the processes you claim exist, yet you want evidence that they don't exist? Do you also want evidence that unicorns don't exist?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by zi ko, posted 01-15-2012 12:38 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by zi ko, posted 01-16-2012 11:06 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 264 of 296 (648633)
01-17-2012 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by zi ko
01-16-2012 11:06 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

I show you two cases of guided mutations:
1.The relative lack of intermediate fossils during periods of greate environmental changes .

You've examined mutations in fossils? Wow!

2.The rapid changes in finches beaks in Galapaguos islands in respond climate changes.

The changes in finch beaks in the Galapagos are not thought to be due to new mutations as far as we know. The expectation is that they're due to changing allele frequencies in certain genes. You can read a brief summary of the causes of finch beak changes at Molecular basis of beak evolution at Wikipedia. The cause of the changes in timing of development that affect beak size don't seem to have been tracked down to specific alleles.

But you've seem to have left out the issue I was addressing. You stated your belief that random mutations and selection both tend to preserve life. This is incorrect. Random mutations if allowed to spread unchecked will worsen adaptation. But random mutations filtered by natural selection so as to remove those that are ill-adaptive improves adaptation, or using your preferred term, "preserves life."

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Slight clarification.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by zi ko, posted 01-16-2012 11:06 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:37 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 271 of 296 (648755)
01-18-2012 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by zi ko
01-18-2012 12:37 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

You've examined mutations in fossils? Wow!

Gould and others dit it.

Gould and others examined mutations in fossils? Wow!

Zi Ko, think a little bit about this. With rare exceptions, fossils contain no organic material. DNA is organic. There is no DNA in fossils.

You still do not seem to understand that mutation and natural selection pull in different directions regarding with you call "life preservation," and I would have thought this would have prevented you from making a clear statement relative about Wright and Shapiro, and yet you successfully pull it off in Message 267:

zi ko in Message 267 writes:

But there is evidence brought by Shapiro, wright, Yablonca ect, showing that information from environment guides evolution direction by direct action and not just indirectly through natural selection.

Yes, you are right that this is what Shapiro and Wright appear to be saying, but as has been pointed out many times, they greatly exaggerate.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:37 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:52 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 276 of 296 (648795)
01-18-2012 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by zi ko
01-18-2012 12:52 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

Come on Percy! The original issue was:
"The relative lack of intermediate fossils during periods of great environmental changes ."
This is I am refering to.

Since you haven't edited your original message, what you actually said is still there in Message 262:

zi ko in Message 262 writes:

I show you two cases of guided mutations:
1.The relative lack of intermediate fossils during periods of greate environmental changes.

Hence the comment, "You've examined mutations in fossils? Wow!"

With only rare exceptions fossils do not contain organic material. You cannot cite the lack of intermediate fossils as an example of guided mutations because there are no mutations to examine.

In the future I suggest that if you're going to selectively quote mine your own posts that you edit them first so you don't get caught.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:52 PM zi ko has taken no action

  
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