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Member (Idle past 4443 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Moral high ground | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
You tell me. Yes.
If you killed someone because an atheist wants them dead, is that an atheism-motivated atrocity? No. Or, to be precise, not necessarily.
That doesn't work with the flood since God did the killing, not a person. That doesn't work with Lot's wife since God turned her to salt, not a person. That doesn't work for Sodom and Gomorrah since God did the killing, not a person. That doesn't work for Er since God did the killing, not a person. That doesn't work for all the first born in Egypt since God did the killing, not a person. That doesn't work for the drownings in the Red Sea since God did the killing, not a person. God isn't a person now?
From your Message 39, I understood the difference to be about the actual reason for the killings ... Yes, and "God wants them dead" would be a religious reason, wouldn't it.
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Hi Portillo,
My point was that most people here dont believe in the historicity of the Bible, but when it comes to atrocities, suddenly the Bible comes alive. Ah, I see. You were being sarcastic. You have to be careful with that. Sarcasm can be tricky to pull off on the web. Well then, I have to agree with Butterflytyrant and disagree with Purpledawn. If you believe that God has personally committed genocide and that his followers have repeatedly committed genocide at God's behest, then you are poorly placed to criticise others for genocide. After all, you believe God is good don't you? If God can commit genocide and remain "good", why must others be condemned for it? I really don't think that it matters that there are people on this board who don't think these stories are true. What matters is that you think them true. That leaves you engaged in a double standard, where it's fine for theists to kill, but unacceptable for anyone else to do the same. I think that this is a good illustrative example of just how theists - who often accuse atheists of having no objective morality - have a very tenuous grasp on what constitutes a moral or immoral act. Apparently, whether genocide is wrong or not depends on who does it. Mutate and Survive
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
purpledawn writes: If you killed someone because an atheist wants them dead, is that an atheism-motivated atrocity?
If the atheist was The Godfather, would it be a mafia-motivated atrocity or an atheist-motivated atrocity?Life, don't talk to me about life.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Why is it not an atheism-motivated atrocity? quote:I don't believe the words people or person are used to refer to gods. quote:No. What do the killings done by God have to do with religion? If an atheist wants someone dead, is that an atheist reason? IMO, you're not being consistent.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3734 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
PD writes:
Do you really not see any connection between god and religion? What do the killings done by God have to do with religion?Do you really not see any connection between what god does and religion? Do you really not see any connection between a holy book (which describes what god did) and religion? So far we have you stating that nothing in the bible is historically true and that god and the bible have nothing to do with religion.Weird. If I were you And I wish that I were you All the things I'd do To make myself turn blue
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Buz writes: OTOH, RCC bloody perpetrators of the Inquisitions brutally tortured and murdered so many protesting true Christians who refused to recant and become subservient to the authority of the popes and bishops of Rome. Buz, during the Inquisitions the only Christians involved were Roman Catholics. There were no "true Christians" other than the Roman Catholics in the West.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
jar writes: Buz writes:OTOH, RCC bloody perpetrators of the Inquisitions brutally tortured and murdered so many protesting true Christians who refused to recant and become subservient to the authority of the popes and bishops of Rome. Buz, during the Inquisitions the only Christians involved were Roman Catholics. There were no "true Christians" other than the Roman Catholics in the West. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs. There were many non-Catholic true believers who were non-violent persecuted people who refused to recant and subject themselves to the Roman Catholic Popes and Bishops. Anyone, Roman Catholic, Jew, Muslim or professing Christian who dared practice or propagate any doctrines contrary to that of the RCC were persecuted and/or executed. Nor were they allowed to interpret scripture other than that of the popes and bishops. In Central and South America this sort of inquisition was applied up into the 19th and 20th century. I remember back in the 1950s and 60s when lives of protestant missionaries were in grave danger in nations like Columbia, Peru, etc by the actions of the priests and bishops who inflamed their adherents to forbid the preaching of the evangelical gospel. No practicing Roman Catholics were brutally tortured and burned alive at the stake by the Roman hierarchy during the Inquisitions.
quote: BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I didn't say that nothing in the Bible is historically true and I didn't say that God or the Bible had nothing to do with religion. Careful with the absolutes. Please pay attention to the argument being made. BFT is adamant that deaths from the Bible should be included for those people who believe the Bible is historically correct.
Butterflytyrant writes: From my experience, the people who lean towards the religious moral high ground claim also lean towards the idea that the bible should be taken as a recording of reality. Because of this, I will include the deaths in the bible. Message 80 Butterflytyrant writes: My position is - A person who believes that the deaths in the bible really occured, needs to count those deaths in the death toll. Message 101 Butterflytyrant writes: The issue is not deaths caused by 'religion free' people. It is deaths caused specifically for religious reasons. Message 120 For those who believe the Bible is historically correct, the deaths listed are to be counted in the death toll as deaths due to religious reasons, according to BFT. If we are going to count them because they are considered true by a believer, then we need to look at the actual reasons for the deaths according to what's written. Just because the events are included in a religious book doesn't mean the reason for the deaths were religious. God is not a religion, he is a supreme being. In the flood account. The supreme being destroyed the people he created. He didn't like the way the majority turned out. What's the supreme being's religious reason? Judges 14:19- Samson didn't slay 30 men for a religious reason.
He flies into a rage and kills thirty Philistines of Ashkelon for their garments, which he gives his thirty groomsmen. What is the religious reason for the killings in the Samson story? You've already seen the rest of my list in Message 124. Show me what the religious reasons are according to the stories. Saying that because God did it or because it is in the Bible makes it a religious reason is no better than saying because an Atheist did it makes it an atheistic reason.
Dirk writes: For that, you need to find people who were killed in the name of atheism, and not just by atheists for some other reason. Message 31 Dr. Adequate writes: This is inconsistent. You should either blame atheism only for atheism-motivated atrocities (i.e. people put to death because they wouldn't renounce theism) in which case your figures for atheism would suddenly become much much smaller ... ... or you should put in the "religion" column every atrocity when theists were in charge, in which case you should add in (for example) the 40 million people killed by the theist Genghis Khan. Message 39 Dr. Adequate writes: Again, I would ask for a little consistency. Either you should say that (for example) the Holdomor was not a crusade for atheism, so it shouldn't be counted against atheists, or you should say that WWI was run by theists and so should be counted against them. Message 40 Tangle writes: That's as daft as claiming that because they all have facial hair, that they killed in the name of Moustaches. Message 85 Dr. Adequate writes: If I killed someone "because God wants them dead", that would be a religiously motivated atrocity, wouldn't it? Message 131PurpleDawn writes: If you killed someone because an atheist wants them dead, is that an atheism-motivated atrocity? No. Or, to be precise, not necessarily. Message 131 Please address the argument being made and the verses brought up in Message 11 by Butterflytyrant. What are the religious reasons behind the events.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Oh good grief Buz.
In the West the only Christian Church was the Roman Catholic Church, the Church founded by Jesus until Foxe's Book of Martyrs is a work of fiction and propaganda written long after the Inquisition. And if you want to honestly look at religious persecutions there were few as likely to kill others as the Protestants. Look at that Puritan Cromwell. If you would like I would be happy to see a thread where the subject can be discussed.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
quote:Source This is from doing 2 mins of research. Enough said. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 756 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined:
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I don't believe the words people or person are used to refer to gods. "God in three Persons, blessed Trinity...." goes one popular churchly song. So some people do. My dad certainly did in his sermons.....
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:We are working with stories in the Bible and since I said people or person, we are talking about humans. Where in the Bible do they refer to God as a person as in human individual? Are gods presented as humans in the Bible stories?
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Taz Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
anglagard writes:
You remember wrong. I wasn't bragging about it. I had to temporarily live somewhere else at the time and completely forgot to register there. I missed out on the last pres election.
I remember back when you were bragging about not voting, that is, not participating in democracy. In fact I remember that you believed democracy was a scam, that you yourself wanted some 'ubermensch' to take control.
You remember wrong, again. I don't believe democracy is a scam. I believe democracy is one of the best political tools we have. But I also think we could do a lot better than this. What democracy does is allow dumbasses in the unwashed masses to think they are so great. I strongly believe that we could improve our current system by having some kind of standardized test to license people to vote.
Who are you to criticize others who do vote? Who are you who sits on their ass and does nothing to further the human condition than whine about others?
Who am I? I am an American citizen who doesn't go out of my way to vote to have other people's rights taken away. Unlike the damn morally superior christians.
GDR is not the enemy of the enlightenment simply because he has a thing about CS Lewis, you are because you have a thing against democracy!
I don't have a thing against democracy. I do have a thing against democracy of the unwashed masses. Go outside and ask random people if they can name the current 5 major Republican candidates. In fact, why don't you go out and specifically find hardcore republicans and ask them if they can name the current 5 major candidates in the Republican party. Now, ask them to name the 6 candidates who debated on fox in Iowa 2 weeks ago. Ask them to describe each candidates' position, their past controversies, etc. Chances are, you won't even find one person who can do this. Since when did we value people voting out of ignorance? And don't tell me them germans who voted for the nazis didn't know about their anti-semitic stance. I wasn't an Obama supporter until very recently. You could say I was a disgruntled hillary supporter for the first 3 years. But say I vote for candidate X and X turns out to be Hitler II, then yes I share responsibility just like everyone else who voted for the bastard. We live in a modern age where information is just a few keyboard strokes away. There's absolutely no excuse anymore for people's ignorance of the candidates they vote for. Added by edit. I'll make it easy for you. Ask your republican friends what Bachman's official position is on how to deal with Iran in regard to the downed spy drone. This should be an easy one for them to answer. If they are serious about who should be the next president, they ought to be able to answer this very simple question. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Where in the Bible do they refer to God as a person as in human individual? There's this guy, named jesus. Maybe you've heard of him?Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Sigh... The Synoptics do not present Jesus as a supernatural being.
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