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Author | Topic: Are Multiverses possible? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
I have some preliminary thoughts on the possibility of multiverses and would like to vet them through the membership here.
Herbert Sweet------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Are Multiverses Possible? The speculation on Multiverses or multiple universes reaches as far back as the nineteenth century. Could such a thing be possible? The answer ‘anything is possible’ first comes to mind but that doesn’t get us very far. To get a better answer we need to start with what we know and work from there. What we know about the universe is that it consists of space, time, matter and energy and we know more about each of these than we think we do. Space not only is what separates the heavenly bodies it is what separates the most elementary particles of matter — what ever they are ultimately determined to be. Time is what separates events. Events are fundamentally the movements of matter or energy through space. There is a commencement, a continuation and a completion. Time is the relationship not only between these stages but is the relationship of the stages to other events. The clock itself; whether measuring the movement of sand in an hourglass, the movement of heavenly bodies such as the earth or the activity of atoms; is measuring the commencement, continuation and completion of an event. Energy is the flip side of matter which propels it through space. We all know that E = mc 2. Without matter there would be no time to denote its movement through space as time is but the measurement of that movement. Without particles (matter), there would be no space to separate them as space is what separates particles. Without space, there would be no separation between particles and therefore there could be no particles at all as they would all be fused together. Without energy there would be no matter. Without matter there would be no energy. If there is no ‘E’ on one side of the equation, then there is no ‘m’ on the other side. As each of these elements is completely wrapped up in the other three, none exist independently. We can only conclude that the universe not only consists of space, time, matter and energy but the universe IS space, time, matter and energy. If each of these elements is interdependent with each of the others, then none could exist separately outside of the universe. There would be no abstract ‘fields’ of space or time or energy as some have thought. This common concept of space or time or energy as an abstract foundation for matter is but an extrapolation of the practical reality of these elements. This is no different than any other straight line extrapolation that assumes that activity further removed is the same as what is currently experienced. We’ve seen this before when people extrapolated their observation of a flat reality to the notion that the entire earth was flat. Haven’t we just increased the scale of this kind of faulty logic? But to speculate that there are multiverses, we need to establish that there is something from which they can arise — some soil for the plants to grow in. If there is nounderlying ‘field’-- no field of energy, no field of time, no field of space-- then there is nothing from which the many universes could arise. Knowing what each of these fields is, we can not conclude that they could exist separately. And even if such was possible, is it reasonable to speculate that any one of these fields could give rise to a universe in which it was but one of the constituents? Could there have been other points from which other universes arose such as the point from which our universe arose? Behind this question is a hidden implication that is based on our everyday perception of reality. It assumes that there was a time and place from which our universe arose and all other universes could have arisen. But to suggest such, we are unwittingly speculating that there must have been a field of time and space to start with which seems unlikely as previously discussed. So as enticing as the multiverse speculation may be, as we look more closely, we find nothing to sustain it.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
How does one conceive of anything that is non physical? Since our intellects serve only to maneuver through and understand space, time matter and energy, nothing else could even be imagined.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
JAR - But aren't these examples you have provided aspects, descriptions or derivatives of the physical? in other words, they relate to the physical. As such they do not stand alone.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
A big name in the field, for sure. I'll check out your link. Thanks.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
Ghost are a derivation of the physical. Some aspect of reality is imagined. Luck and fortune are descriptive of one's relationship to the physical including the relationship to other (physical) individuals. Love is descriptive of a relationship with another (physical) being although some people claim to love things. Beauty is simply a rating, of sorts, of how some particular individual or thing is perceived. A dot or straight line is relational to a three dimensional object or, abstractly, to any three dimensional object.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
In response to nwr I questioned the ability to conceive of anything that wasn't physical. My response to you has been that you have been listing qualities of the physical. Whatever we think eventually is derived from the physical.
If someone suggests a non physical universe, I don't believe that anyone can make any sense out of that other than a sci-fi writer.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
Paulk & Cavediver,
My quick take on Max Tegmark is that his speculations are based on an infinite base of space. I questioned the rationality of this as the foundation would have had to have manifested as but a component of each universe generated. By this logic, if there is a foundation outside of our universe and any other possible universe, it would have to be something other than space, time, matter or energy.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
Cavediver, The multiverse answer also needs to be probed for the psychological need for an alternate to the anthropic. Some detachment from science itself is called for. What I am referring to as the scientific split from religion in the 17th century having left a long lingering discomfort with any kind of non material explanations.
The anthropic, BTW does fit in very nicely with the earliest of Indian (Vedic) thought. There it is said that underlying the material reality is a non deified Intelligence and that the evolution of its manifest relative reality is Intelligence getting to know itself.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
Dr Adaquate, We can not intellectually understand any possible physical reality outside of our universe due to the limitations of our intellects. Human intellect evolved so that we could navigate within the relative universe of space, time, matter and energy so anything else that might possibly exist is beyond our capability.
When we try to think 'outside the universe', we only project what is inside the universe to that 'realm' -- that's all that we can do. My argument is that whatever it is that is non-universe can't be what is within the universe otherwise there would be no distinction between the two. And it is certainly illogical to think that one of the elements of creation, space, time, matter or energy is both the source of the creation and a component of it at the same time. I agree that the point of the creation could have spurned out other universes but we can not know or observe that in any physical way.Keep in mind that, by the logic I have offered, anything 'spurning out' could not be spurned into space. At best it would be a spurning out OF space and possibly matter, energy and time. That's all we can imagine. I would be interested, though, in any mathematical perspectives -- if they can be summarized at the non mathematical level. Edited by hsweet, : enhanced response.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
Dr Adaquate, At the risk of double responding, I will proceed here.
What I wish to convey is my doubts about projecting any of the contents of the universe to the status of something underlying the universe . I am referring to popular ideas such as an energy field or infinite space and time. Please refer to my other response to you.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
Panda, I agree that The prescriptive version of 'luck' does not describe anything physical. But it does relate to the physical by predicting physical outcomes. It is ultimately a discussion about the physical. Of course, unless you can demonstrate mind over matter or gods in action, it's nonsense.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
I'm going to need some help here. Isn't mathematics ultimately relational to the physical? Two times two is four but ultimately aren't we talking about four somethings?
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
I do not in any way want to imply that these folks have no value because they are not producing stuff. What they are producing, instead, is ultimately relational to the material. You will not find any activity that is not ultimately relative to something or someone.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
Let's try a new vector. Try to think of nothing -- no thing. You can't do it. Your thoughts will always settle on some thing. You are a creature of the material creation and can use your intellect for nothing else.
What this means in this discussion is that should you try to imagine something outside of the universe it will always look like something inside the universe. We are locked in.
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hsweet Junior Member (Idle past 619 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
What do you imagine that does not relate to something that does exist?
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