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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4160 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 181 of 318 (645669)
12-28-2011 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Granny Magda
12-26-2011 4:43 AM


You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
My point wasnt that religion has never caused violence, but that atheistic totalitarian regimes have killed even more people than all religious atrocities put together. It doesnt matter to atheists that Stalin was an avowed atheist and wanted to exterminate religion. It doesnt matter that Lenin singularly selected Stalin because of his hatred of religion. It doesnt matter that Hitler was influenced by social Darwinism and Friedrich Nietzsche. Atheists can wipe their hands clean because fortunately, Stalin killed for other reasons not atheism. Even if Stalin thought that the elimination of religion was central and atheism essential to his revolution. Luckily, whenever he killed he removed his atheist ideology, then put it back on after. Stalin's atheism was front and center. It was not incidental but absolutely central to the whole scheme. Thankfully, Stalin was a murderer who just happened to be an atheist.
Religion is evil, the Soviet Union is evil, therefore the Soviet Union is religious. Its a ridiculous extrapolation, if you have any critical mind whatsoever. There were religious elements to the Soviet Union, but it was secular religion. To create a sense of community, cohesion, and identity, the Soviet Union created Communist Saturday, May Day, Victory Day, Constitution Day and Revolution Day. These were often counterparts to Christian rituals and events. Sounds like fun doesnt it!
So why cant the same "excuse" be used for Christianity? Is it possible that those that kill in the name of Jesus Christ are not actually living according to the teaching and spirit of Jesus? Is it possible that violence in the name of Christianity comes from NOT following Christianity as opposed to following it? Let me guess what the answer is, "No, all these men and women were Christian." Tell me is there some confusion here? And as far as violence by the Catholic Church is concerned, the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. In fact, in the Book of Revelation, God destroys the Catholic Church which is "drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus."

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Granny Magda, posted 12-26-2011 4:43 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 12-28-2011 10:33 PM Portillo has not replied
 Message 184 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-29-2011 12:00 AM Portillo has replied
 Message 186 by frako, posted 12-29-2011 6:37 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 187 by Granny Magda, posted 12-29-2011 8:53 AM Portillo has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 318 (645670)
12-28-2011 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Portillo
12-28-2011 10:24 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
LOL
More utter nonsense.
What happened to all of the various religions and cultures that were in pre-Christian Europe?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Portillo, posted 12-28-2011 10:24 PM Portillo has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 183 of 318 (645671)
12-28-2011 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2011 12:02 PM


Re: Relative Death Tolls
Then how is he the one that's religious?
The belief that God should be worshiped is a religious belief.
Would you claim that God is irreligious?
I think it'd help if we knew what was being referred to.
That's up to Portillo.
So, since you have god as religious, you'd imagine him going: "hrm, I wonder what I would think that I should do. Oh, I bet its this. I better follow what I want, so I'm gonna do that. Hooray. All praise to me." ?
I don't see that doubt as to God's will is necessary to religion. Did Moses stop being religious just because he was getting his instructions from the horses mouth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2011 12:02 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 184 of 318 (645672)
12-29-2011 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Portillo
12-28-2011 10:24 PM


Same Ol' Double Standard
My point wasnt that religion has never caused violence, but that atheistic totalitarian regimes have killed even more people than all religious atrocities put together.
And, as I have pointed out, this statement is either pointless or dishonest. You must either compare atheist regimes to theist regimes, or religious atrocities to anti-religious atrocities.
It doesnt matter to atheists that Stalin was an avowed atheist and wanted to exterminate religion.
Should it?
The Emperors Franz Joseph and Wilhelm II were avowed Christians. Does that mean that World War I should be laid at the feet of Christianity, or just at the feet of people who incidentally happened to be Christians?
So why cant the same "excuse" be used for Christianity?
It can, so long as you're consistent about it.
Either you can blame atheism for the Stalinist Terror and blame Christianity for WWI, or you can absolve atheism of the Stalinist Terror and absolve Christianity of WWI. What you cannot reasonably do is have it both ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Portillo, posted 12-28-2011 10:24 PM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Portillo, posted 12-29-2011 3:54 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4160 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 185 of 318 (645710)
12-29-2011 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Dr Adequate
12-29-2011 12:00 AM


Re: Same Ol' Double Standard
quote:
It can, so long as you're consistent about it.
I never denied religious atrocities.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-29-2011 12:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-29-2011 1:22 PM Portillo has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(3)
Message 186 of 318 (645715)
12-29-2011 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Portillo
12-28-2011 10:24 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
It doesnt matter to atheists that Stalin was an avowed atheist and wanted to exterminate religion.
And put himself up as the one and only god
It doesnt matter that Hitler was influenced by social Darwinism and Friedrich Nietzsche.
And used the bible to make all beleievrs beleive that they are doing gods work when they are killing jews, and romani, and the like, and ofcourse enemy soldiers. Oh and that he made atheistic organisations ILLEGAL

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Portillo, posted 12-28-2011 10:24 PM Portillo has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 187 of 318 (645732)
12-29-2011 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Portillo
12-28-2011 10:24 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
My point wasnt that religion has never caused violence, but that atheistic totalitarian regimes have killed even more people than all religious atrocities put together.
Understood.
It doesnt matter to atheists that Stalin was an avowed atheist and wanted to exterminate religion.
No it doesn't. It doesn't matter to me, mostly because the truth of an idea is not directly related to the morality of those who hold that idea. Stalin also believed that two plus two made four, but no matter how evil he was, that doesn't make it untrue. In a way this thread is a bit of a waste of time. You can point to as many evil atheists as you like, it won't have any bearing on whether gods exist or not.
However, the thrust of this thread has been to compare the respective death counts of religion and atheism. Stalin is only one man. You need to make more of an effort to count up some kind of total for the alleged atheist death-tally. Just naming one evil infidel isn't enough.
It doesnt matter that Lenin singularly selected Stalin because of his hatred of religion.
That's just straightforwardly wrong. Lenin tried to stop Stalin from becoming his successor. He failed of course, but he saw, just too late, how dangerous Stalin was. Weirdly enough, the other Soviet leaders chose Stalin because they thought he would be harmless and easy to manipulate. They viewed Stalin as a boring bureaucrat, too lacking in imagination to be any kind of threat. "Comrade Filing Card" they called him. Then he had half of them killed. They stopped calling him "Comrade Filing Card" then.
It doesnt matter that Hitler was influenced by social Darwinism and Friedrich Nietzsche.
Social Darwinism is mostly unscientific. It has litle resemblance to the actual ToE, being mostly based upon misunderstandings of the real theory. remember, the ToE is merely a description of a biological process, not a political philosophy. Anyone attempting to use it as such is doing it wrong.
Also, you will find that Hitler was more of a creationist than an evolutionist;
quote:
The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator. - Adolf Hitler
More here; rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_evolution
Atheists can wipe their hands clean because fortunately, Stalin killed for other reasons not atheism. Even if Stalin thought that the elimination of religion was central and atheism essential to his revolution. Luckily, whenever he killed he removed his atheist ideology, then put it back on after. Stalin's atheism was front and center. It was not incidental but absolutely central to the whole scheme. Thankfully, Stalin was a murderer who just happened to be an atheist.
Actually, I would be willing to accept that some of Stalin's victims were persecuted for their religious beliefs. The problem is that not all of them were, with most, there were other reasons. This makes the idea of simply comparing totals too simplistic and naive a notion to be of any value.
Religion is evil, the Soviet Union is evil, therefore the Soviet Union is religious. Its a ridiculous extrapolation, if you have any critical mind whatsoever.
Which is why I didn't say any such thing.
There were religious elements to the Soviet Union, but it was secular religion. To create a sense of community, cohesion, and identity, the Soviet Union created Communist Saturday, May Day, Victory Day, Constitution Day and Revolution Day. These were often counterparts to Christian rituals and events. Sounds like fun doesnt it!
yes, they stole all of religion's best tricks. You don't find that at all disconcerting?
the point here is not that the Soviet Union was evil because it aped religion. The point is that both the Soviet Union and religion have both used unethical means to control people, and that this is evil, whoever does it.
So why cant the same "excuse" be used for Christianity? Is it possible that those that kill in the name of Jesus Christ are not actually living according to the teaching and spirit of Jesus?
Sure. But that is irrelevant to the truth claims made by Christians.
It is also a contradiction in your argument; either you want to look at the motivations or you don't. Please decide.
Let me guess what the answer is, "No, all these men and women were Christian." Tell me is there some confusion here?
the problem here is that you are using the term "Christianity" to describe the semi-mythical "True Christian". But how are we supposed to identify this paragon? If I ask you, you'll tell me that your version of Christianity is the truest. If I ask another Christian, they'll tell me that their version is the truest. And so on, for every iteration of Christianity on the market. All of these groups claim that the Bible can be best interpreted by their own sect. The plurality of opinion that this creates makes it very difficult to tell who might be right.
Ultimately, only God (if he exists) can determine who is a True Christian. Until he weighs in, we're left with an impossible number of competing claims, all unfalsifiable and all equally worthless. The only way to get around this problem it seems to me, is to regard all those who revere Christ as Christians.
If you want a fresh perspective on this, I have frequently heard Muslims claiming that the 9/11 attackers were not Muslims. they use exactly the same logic as you employ here. What do you say to that? Ready to let Islam off the hook on that one? Were the terrorists "not real Muslims"?
Tell me is there some confusion here? And as far as violence by the Catholic Church is concerned, the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. In fact, in the Book of Revelation, God destroys the Catholic Church which is "drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus."
*snigger* You might want to lay off the crack pipe for a while there. Your paranoia is showing.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Portillo, posted 12-28-2011 10:24 PM Portillo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 1:39 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 188 of 318 (645748)
12-29-2011 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Portillo
12-29-2011 3:54 AM


Re: Same Ol' Double Standard
I never denied religious atrocities.
I didn't say you had. Instead, I pointed out (twice now, and at length) wherein your inconsistency lies.
Let's try it again, this time by analogy. Suppose someone in an attempt to disparage black people or to downplay the significance of lynching says: "Black people have murdered a hundred times more people than white people have lynched for racial reasons".
This may actually be true, but it's irrelevant, because he's comparing total murders by black people with racially-motivated murders by white people, which is a mere subset of the number of people they've killed.
To have a level playing field, one should compare like with like --- either compare total murders to total murders, or lynchings to lynchings.
Now you are making an exactly analogous mistake. You are comparing total deaths caused by atheists with religiously-motivated deaths caused by theists. And now that I have exposed the bias implicit in this form of reckoning, I think you should stop.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Portillo, posted 12-29-2011 3:54 AM Portillo has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 189 of 318 (645749)
12-29-2011 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Granny Magda
12-29-2011 8:53 AM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
If you want a fresh perspective on this, I have frequently heard Muslims claiming that the 9/11 attackers were not Muslims. they use exactly the same logic as you employ here. What do you say to that? Ready to let Islam off the hook on that one? Were the terrorists "not real Muslims"?
Not only the 9/11 attackers, but "terrorists" in general are ostracized by liberal Islam just the same as the christians on this board are doing for the atrocities committed in the name of christianity. "No true muslim". However, christians, by and large, are very willing to lay the blame on Islam as a whole.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Granny Magda, posted 12-29-2011 8:53 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by GDR, posted 12-29-2011 2:10 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 190 of 318 (645750)
12-29-2011 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 1:39 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
hooah212002 writes:
However, christians, by and large, are very willing to lay the blame on Islam as a whole.
In the west I'd suggest that is largely true of the population in general.
However, count me as one Christian, (and I would suggest that I'm in the majority world wide), who lays the blame at the feet of fanaticism. In the case of 9/11 it happened to be Islamic fanaticism.
The largest, (to the best of my knowledge), terrorist plot that we had in Canada was primarily foiled by mainline Muslims and the information that was gained from that source.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 1:39 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 2:34 PM GDR has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 191 of 318 (645751)
12-29-2011 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by GDR
12-29-2011 2:10 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
(and I would suggest that I'm in the majority world wide),
Perhaps the silent majority..... There is plenty of hatred towards Islam in general. Let's just look at how it was portrayed in accusing Obama as being a Muslim... Also look at the big ordeal that surrounded the TV show "American Muslim".
So, fine, say "not me, not me. I'm not a bigot" but that falls on deaf ears when you and people like you are mute about the subject. Sure, there may be a number of liberal christians such as yourself, but you lot are far too quiet and don't put enough distance between your "right version" of christianity and the extremists. I go so far as to say that you enable the extremism by acting as a shield for it.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by GDR, posted 12-29-2011 2:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 193 by GDR, posted 12-29-2011 6:12 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 192 of 318 (645752)
12-29-2011 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 2:34 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
But GDR is not mute about the subject.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 2:34 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 193 of 318 (645758)
12-29-2011 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 2:34 PM


We're all in this together
hooah212002 writes:
Perhaps the silent majority..... There is plenty of hatred towards Islam in general. Let's just look at how it was portrayed in accusing Obama as being a Muslim... Also look at the big ordeal that surrounded the TV show "American Muslim".
That was my point and I think that we in the west had better realize that if we start tarring all Muslims with the extremist brush, we will not only be wrong, but we will pay a large price for it.
If I were a moderate Muslim and I knew of some fellow Muslims that I suspected were planning something, I am going to be much more inclined to report them to a society in which I feel accepted than in one in which I feel rejected. That isn't to say that most Muslims wouldn't report their knowledge or suspicions anyway, just because it is the right thing to do, but you know what I mean.
In North America we are immigrant societies, (aside from the indigenous people), built on inclusiveness. That is part of our culture and if we start rejecting that it is a steep slippery slope from there.
hooah212002 writes:
So, fine, say "not me, not me. I'm not a bigot" but that falls on deaf ears when you and people like you are mute about the subject. Sure, there may be a number of liberal christians such as yourself, but you lot are far too quiet and don't put enough distance between your "right version" of christianity and the extremists. I go so far as to say that you enable the extremism by acting as a shield for it.
Firstly I'm not keen on labels but if you must label me I don't consider myself a liberal Christian, I would just call myself orthodox.
I'm not quite sure what you suggest I do with my views. I post them here and on the odd other forum, and I talk with anyone who cares to listen. Frankly, in my view the best way to share my views is to try and live them. I'm far from successful in doing that well, but it is the goal.
Actually I was speaking two days ago to a young Canadian Muslim who is Palestinian and grew up in the Gaza. We discussed our respective faiths and the amount of overlap that there is between the two. If we start by sharing what we have in common we are then in a position to understand how we live together without letting our differences get in the way. (Heck, I even have friends who are atheists. )
Believe me, if I was aware of some form of extremism of any form that was endangering human life I'd do what I could to stop it. Most Christians I know aren’t fundamentalists and even those that are, are busily raising families and in most cases doing charitable work. I think that their views do lead to a basic misunderstanding of the nature of God but frankly most of them just read the parts of the Bible that focus on the love of God and ignore the contrary bits, and if absolutely necessary explain them away by saying that it was necessary then but we have a new covenant.
As far as my "right" version of Christianity is concerned I would never label it as that. It is Christianity as I understand it and believe it. Maybe in the next life I'll have it sorted out and find out where I was right and where I was wrong. (Just as long as I don't have to listen to Dawn saying I told you so, I told you so for eternity. )
Edited by GDR, : Changed title and added a bit
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 2:34 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 6:31 PM GDR has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 194 of 318 (645759)
12-29-2011 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by GDR
12-29-2011 6:12 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
built on inclusiveness. That is part of our culture and if we start rejecting that it is a steep slippery slope from there.
You don't follow US politics, do you? This country is far from "inclusive". Every single republican candidate leading the race speaks of "bringing my christian faith to the white house" and christian this christian that. As an atheist, I don't feel inclusive. Especially when there are zero atheists in office. How many non-Jew/christian representatives are there? I can't count how many times I have read about the ACLU getting involved because of some gov't meeting that starts with a prayer to jesus, or a public school that holds christian prayers over the loud speaker at graduation or a football game. The only areas in the US that can even be remotely considered inclusive in regards to religion are the liberal of the liberal like major cities on the coast. However, as soon as you trek towards the midwest, you get christianity shoved up your ass like a hot poker.
Firstly I'm not keen on labels but if you must label me I don't consider myself a liberal Christian, I would just call myself orthodox.
I don't mean liberal, in this case, as a title but as a description. IMO, any christian that isn't a literalist/fundamentalist/dogmatic is a liberal christian. Think: wishy-washy.
As far as the rest of your post: I have no disagreements. You seem like a nice enough guy and a model for the religious to hope to be like. I just used you as an example so I apologize for indicting you as I did. However, my grudge with liberal christianity still stands as "you" guys will stand as a shield against the extremists.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by GDR, posted 12-29-2011 6:12 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 12-29-2011 7:00 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 195 of 318 (645761)
12-29-2011 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 6:31 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
hooah212002 writes:
However, my grudge with liberal christianity still stands as "you" guys will stand as a shield against the extremists.
Too funny.
Yes Liberal Christians do try to shield folk like you. We pray for your soul too. Yes we are a shield against extremism.
We don't even ask you to be grateful.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 6:31 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 7:28 PM jar has replied
 Message 198 by Rahvin, posted 12-29-2011 8:02 PM jar has replied

  
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