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Author Topic:   Moral high ground
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 196 of 318 (645764)
12-29-2011 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
12-29-2011 7:00 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
If it weren't for the liberal relgionists, we as a society would have no problem relegating the silly beliefs of christianity/islam/judaism etc. the way of astrology. However, we do have the liberal religionists who stand in the way and say "you need to let people believe what they want" and since you lot can't unify on a reasonable, rational belief set, the rest of us are left having to deal with the extremists because it is still a faux-pa to mock the belief that we need a magic jewish zombie to forgive us for some rib-woman eating a fruit. If we were left with nothing but the extremists or literalists, it would be that much easier for the whole of society to realize how much better of we are without fairy tales and we could eradicate them from every day public discourse.
So how, again, are you shielding anyone against extremism??

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 12-29-2011 7:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by jar, posted 12-29-2011 7:35 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 201 by GDR, posted 12-29-2011 8:21 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 204 by Jon, posted 12-30-2011 1:10 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 197 of 318 (645765)
12-29-2011 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 7:28 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
Utter bullshit.
We too have to deal with the extremists.
No one has said it is still a faux-pa to mock the belief that we need a magic jewish zombie to forgive us for some rib-woman eating a fruit.
No liberal I know of has ever said that "you need to let people believe what they want", it is the US Constitution that says that.
Consider telling the truth and stop misrepresenting reality.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 7:28 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 8:18 PM jar has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 198 of 318 (645767)
12-29-2011 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
12-29-2011 7:00 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
Yes Liberal Christians do try to shield folk like you. We pray for your soul too. Yes we are a shield against extremism.
I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with Hooah in his analysis of liberal Christians. I haven't thought much on the topic, so I don;t know what position to take.
I will say, however, that "praying" is a fancy word for "doing nothing useful whatsoever." "Praying" for reduced extremism does effectively nothing to curb it.
A real "shield against extremism" would require actively reaching out to extremists and attempting to convince them of the error of their ways. I suppose the "liberal Christian" version of that would be actively attempting to gain converts from the more extreme denominations. Not just looking at a story about a bombed abortion facility and thinking "oh, that's sad, they shouldn't do that," and then praying for the victims and for reduced violence, but actively seeking out the anti-abortion protesters and reminding them of the "love your enemy" bits of the Bible to discourage the less rational from taking matters beyond protest.
I don't see a lot of that. I see a lot of apathy.
That said, I see a lot of apathy from the vast majority of people, inclusive of those who agree that extremism is very bad and needs to be stopped, across all belief systems. Actual active attempts to curb extremism are rare. I don't know that "liberal Christians" are sufficiently different from everyone else to be singled out by that sort of criticism.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 12-29-2011 7:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 12-29-2011 8:20 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 208 by Chuck77, posted 12-30-2011 4:33 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 199 of 318 (645768)
12-29-2011 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by jar
12-29-2011 7:35 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
"I'm right, you're wrong" is such a great argument, jar.
No one has said it is still a faux-pa to mock the belief that we need a magic jewish zombie to forgive us for some rib-woman eating a fruit.
Then why is atheist still such a dirty word? So dirty a word is it, that a large portion of the skeptic community is actively distancing themselves and going to great lengths to make sure it is known that skepticism does not equate atheism. Why are people such as Dawkins and Harris seeking new terms for atheists (brights, they are calling it now). If you are now claiming that it is now acceptable to, in every day discourse, laugh and chide with relative strangers about religion the same as we do astrology or bigfoot, you live in a different world than I do.
No liberal I know of has ever said that "you need to let people believe what they want", it is the US Constitution that says that.
Golly jee, jar. You mean we have a constitution that guarantees freedom of religion? Wow, I had no idea I was talking about legal issues. Thank you for correcting me. I had no idea that social norms were included in the same document, either.
Consider telling the truth and stop misrepresenting reality.
Painful truth is not a lie, jar. You are just another example of a liberal christian doing all he/she can to make silly irrational beliefs acceptable. I'm sorry that you think praying is helpful.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by jar, posted 12-29-2011 7:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by jar, posted 12-29-2011 8:29 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 200 of 318 (645769)
12-29-2011 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Rahvin
12-29-2011 8:02 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
It really doesn't much matter what you see.
And I did not say "pray for reduced extremism", I said pray for YOU.
I think you will admit that I and several others do speak out against extremism.
Apathy is certainly an issue, as it has always been. But Liberal Christianity is not the problem.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Rahvin, posted 12-29-2011 8:02 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 201 of 318 (645770)
12-29-2011 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 7:28 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
hooah212002 writes:
If it weren't for the liberal relgionists, we as a society would have no problem relegating the silly beliefs of christianity/islam/judaism etc. the way of astrology. However, we do have the liberal religionists who stand in the way and say "you need to let people believe what they want" and since you lot can't unify on a reasonable, rational belief set, the rest of us are left having to deal with the extremists because it is still a faux-pa to mock the belief that we need a magic jewish zombie to forgive us for some rib-woman eating a fruit. If we were left with nothing but the extremists or literalists, it would be that much easier for the whole of society to realize how much better of we are without fairy tales and we could eradicate them from every day public discourse.
This will all probably sound quite sanctimonious but here goes anyway. It is just a couple of thoughts that I have about your post.
Personally I have never found it helpful when arguing for or against someone else's beliefs to mock either them or their beliefs. Frankly I find it difficult to understand how anyone can believe that existence and particularly human existence could have evolved from a non-intelligent first cause, but I do recognize that there are many people, much more intelligent than myself who do believe just that.
Just maybe, you could recognize the fact that there are many highly intelligent people, maybe even some more intelligent than you, whose worldview is formed because they believe in the very things that you mock.
My beliefs are just that. I can't prove them to be true and in fact I can't know them to be true in the way that we normally speak of knowing something. I frankly have very little doubt of the basic tenants of my faith, but it is a faith.
You seem to suggest that it is important that fundamentalists be shown the error of their ways. If that is your goal then I suggest that your way of going about it is counter-productive.
There are some Christian posters on this forum that cause me to cringe when I read their posts and think of them representing the beliefs that are so important to me. I don't know, but I have a hunch that there are atheists, (I assuming that is what you would call yourself), here that feel the same way about posts like this one of yours.
Regardless of what you post I will continue to respect your beliefs. Maybe you might consider the same courtesy for those who don't share your beliefs.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 7:28 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 8:32 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2011 3:31 AM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 202 of 318 (645771)
12-29-2011 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 8:18 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
I can't much help what world you live in, that is up to you.
You'll have to ask the "Brights" why they felt a need to change their name.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 8:18 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 203 of 318 (645772)
12-29-2011 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by GDR
12-29-2011 8:21 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
This will be my last post in this vein as we are destroying htis thread with this off topic banter.
Just maybe, you could recognize the fact that there are many highly intelligent people, maybe even some more intelligent than you, whose worldview is formed because they believe in the very things that you mock.
Of course I recognize that. However, just because someone smarter than me has an irrational belief set doesn't make that belief set any more valid or rational. Moreover, plenty more idiots hold the same belief that you do to justify the mockery. Thos individuals who are intelligent and are held in high regard in intellectual society compartmentalize their irrational beliefs so they don't matter much to the nature of their character in that regard.
I don't know, but I have a hunch that there are atheists, (I assuming that is what you would call yourself), here that feel the same way about posts like this one of yours.
Yes, I am an atheist. I would hope, actually encourage, others to call me out if I am incorrect. I have proven in the past that i am more than willing to be corrected if I am wrong. I can take criticism (from the right individual, that is) if I say something profoundly retarded or detrimental to the freethought cause.
Regardless of what you post I will continue to respect your beliefs. Maybe you might consider the same courtesy for those who don't share your beliefs.
I respect your right to have those beliefs but I absolutely do not respect the beliefs themselves.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by GDR, posted 12-29-2011 8:21 PM GDR has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 204 of 318 (645785)
12-30-2011 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by hooah212002
12-29-2011 7:28 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
Do you ever post anything about religion that doesn't illuminate your deep hatred and total ignorance of the subject?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by hooah212002, posted 12-29-2011 7:28 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2011 1:18 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 210 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-30-2011 10:36 AM Jon has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 205 of 318 (645786)
12-30-2011 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Jon
12-30-2011 1:10 AM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
I notice your response is sorely lacking in anything that resembles an explanation as to how I am wrong. Instead, it sounds as though you disagree because you don't like the idea of someone talking down to liberal relgionists. If you would like to actually discuss the position or issue I raised and do so with argument instead of insult, I'd be glad to oblige.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Jon, posted 12-30-2011 1:10 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Chuck77, posted 12-30-2011 1:33 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 318 (645790)
12-30-2011 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by hooah212002
12-30-2011 1:18 AM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
hooah writes:
If you would like to actually discuss the position or issue I raised and do so with argument instead of insult, I'd be glad to oblige.
Hahahahahahahahaha...you should still be banned. They let you back already? Shame, but thanks for the laugh!
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2011 1:18 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 207 of 318 (645792)
12-30-2011 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by GDR
12-29-2011 8:21 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
GDR writes:
Regardless of what you post I will continue to respect your beliefs. Maybe you might consider the same courtesy for those who don't share your beliefs.
Sadly, I don't think that's actually possible. It's a less extreme form of the Christian homophobe's 'love the sinner but hate the sin.' It's nonsense - beliefs maketh the man, people judge you on them and they can't avoid it.

Life, don't talk to me about life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by GDR, posted 12-29-2011 8:21 PM GDR has not replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 208 of 318 (645793)
12-30-2011 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Rahvin
12-29-2011 8:02 PM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
Rahvin writes:
I will say, however, that "praying" is a fancy word for "doing nothing useful whatsoever."
*Buzzer* That would be the "incorrect" buzzer.
Praying is talking to God. That's what praying is. It's not rubbing a magic lantern.
Sometimes we just talk to God. That's praying. Sometimes we ask God to help someone. That's praying.
Sometimes we even ask God to help us. That's praying.
Sometimes we just thank God for being who He is and caring for us. That's praying.
There are many forms of prayer. What prayer is not is this:
"doing nothing useful whatsoever."
Go ahead and start a prayer thread so you can learn what prayer is.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Rahvin, posted 12-29-2011 8:02 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 209 of 318 (645795)
12-30-2011 5:39 AM


Topic Please
Participants,
Please get back to the topic of the thread.
Remember to argue the position and not the person and avoid short posts, try to enlarge on the argument and give your opponent something to build on.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you
AdminPD Purple

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 318 (645817)
12-30-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Jon
12-30-2011 1:10 AM


Re: You cant create the utopia until you free people from religion and get rid of it.
Do you ever post anything about religion that doesn't illuminate your deep hatred and total ignorance of the subject?
I was wondering the same thing...
Here we have two christians calmly expressing themselves to an assholish atheist who spouts nothing but vitriol. And he thinks that he has the moral high ground
Who needs to count deaths!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Jon, posted 12-30-2011 1:10 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Rahvin, posted 12-30-2011 12:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 212 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2011 1:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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