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Author | Topic: A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Dawn Bertot writes: Paul made it clear that the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. If the law is truly of God then it exists as something that is not dependant on our 4d universe. Jesus came to fulfill the law, (which is timeless) and He told us how we can know the law which is truly of God and it is all about having hearts that love unselfishly. Jesus fulfilled, clarified and lived the law as we are called to do as well. Is it part of God's law that we are to stone to death, prostitutes, adulterers, difficult children, anybody doing any manner of work on the Sabbath, (which happens to be Saturday by the way), etc. You keep asking how I know. I look at Jesus and can give a flat no as an answer. Once again what answer does your literal reading provide? You are the one that can't answer the difficult questions. It is easy to say that the world was created in 6 days or argue for a flood that destroyed all living creatures except for those marched on to a boat in spite of all evidence to the contrary, but moral issues are a different kettle of fish. You have to pick which specific Biblical book or verse that you choose to believe.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 111 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
GDR writes:
The god of the OT supposedly ordered His people to commit genocide which is completely contradictory to the message of God as revealed by Jesus. I have a way of resolving that as I believe that one of the reasons God gave us Jesus in the first place was to bring understanding to the Scriptures. IMHO God abhors genocide. You have to come up with an answer that justifies genocide then but not now. How do you determine which is correct? No, I dont have to come up with a answer, that has already been provided before I read any passages from the Old Test or the New, about what God may or may not have done. You just keep ignoring, that precedence of scripture exists. Or as I suspect, you dont trust or have faith in it Its called heirarchy of spiritual standards. A. God exists. B. God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge, you are not. If I cannot trust what it says concerning his makeup and nature, who cares what the rest of the Bible has to say. Because if I cant trust that primary principle, I surely can trust nothing else, correct? Here is an example. Tell me, is any of the following passages out of the Torah, true? Would God actually do to the Irealites, those things he did to the Egyptians? Did this miracle actually happen? If he would, why do you think that you have a right to decide for him? And, that is all dependant on whether you consider the following passages as real in the first place. Lets see what you have to say. Exodus 15: 22 Then Moses led Israel from the Red Sea and they went into the Desert of Shur. For three days they traveled in the desert without finding water. 23 When they came to Marah, they could not drink its water because it was bitter. (That is why the place is called Marah.[f]) 24 So the people grumbled against Moses, saying, What are we to drink? 25 Then Moses cried out to the LORD, and the LORD showed him a piece of wood. He threw it into the water, and the water became fit to drink. There the LORD issued a ruling and instruction for them and put them to the test. 26 He said, If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you. So what would and did happen, if they did not obey his commands Did the earth really swallow up nearly three thousand people when Moses came down from the mountain and the people were simply disobedient? Or is your claim that God did not do that. Or is that a made up story as well. Where does your approach end Did that happen and does simple disobedience justify genocide Here is the point, if I have to pick and choose out of the Old Testament, then there will be vitually nothing left Then of course I am now obligated to do the same with the NT, with things like Acts 5 and the topic of Hell Or we could just write our own Bible, like Thomas Jefferson and leave out all the miracles entirely Again whos method do I follow, your or Jeffersons. Since you said some miracles are legend, how do I decide which ones are not
You are the one that can't answer the difficult questions. It is easy to say that the world was created in 6 days or argue for a flood that destroyed all living creatures except for those marched on to a boat in spite of all evidence to the contrary, but moral issues are a different kettle of fish. You have to pick which specific Biblical book or verse that you choose to believe. If we both believe the Bible is the word of God, then the difficult questions are already answered, as I I have indicated above Your problem is that you think you need to answer for God. I dont. Are you kidding me? Do you realize what this says concerning you status compared to God. We dont needs Gods justice and mercy, we will consult Greg Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Dawn Bertot writes: No, I dont have to come up with a answer, that has already been provided before I read any passages from the Old Test or the New, about what God may or may not have done. You just keep ignoring, that precedence of scripture exists. You are the one that keeps insisting that I have no way of knowing what is true. I have been able to give you examples in the Bible that are contradictory and have been able to pick the one I believe to be true based on the teaching of Jesus. It is you who have no method of determining what it is that you believe. You just go on parroting the idea that it is all true even though there is an obvious contradiction, and then accuse me of lack of faith. Your faith, as has been substantiated, is in the Bible which you even agreed that you deified. Jesus seems to get left out of the equation, and God the Father is marginalized.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
I think that is is safe to say that the majority of modern views of morality (of whatever basis) would see it as immoral to stone somebody to death for any crime (much less picking up wood on a Sunday). What I want to know is whether it is ackowledged and agreed by DB that his Faith is in a God who orders that. If it is, then I can come to a better understanding of Faith in the inerrancy of the Bible. And likewise, if it isn't I will still come to that better understanding.
My faith is in a God who did order that. God is perfectly righteous in all of his dealings. That doesn't mean it is right for a man to do it or order it to be done. What makes something immoral is the why of it, and God ultimately determines what is moral and immoral in any particular circumstance.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
foreveryoung writes:
In other words you believe in a god of situational ethics. I believe in a God who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. My faith is in a God who did order that. God is perfectly righteous in all of his dealings. That doesn't mean it is right for a man to do it or order it to be done. What makes something immoral is the why of it, and God ultimately determines what is moral and immoral in any particular circumstance. I cannot fathom how anyone can believe in both God as incarnate in Jesus and also believe in a god who would have the people he chose to bring a message of love of others to the world, to get together and stone to death difficult kids or somebody that picked up some firewood on the Sabbath. Is there any fundamentalist/literalist on this forum who has given all they have to the poor? Read Matthew 19. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
No, I don't believe in a God of situational ethics. It is moral to kill someone who is going to kill your family. It is immoral to kill someone because he ticked you off. Get it? I doubt it.
I cannot fathom how anyone can believe in both God as incarnate in Jesus and also believe in a god who would have the people he chose to bring a message of love of others to the world, to get together and stone to death difficult kids or somebody that picked up some firewood on the Sabbath. That is because you are assuming the situation in ancient palestine is identical to the situation in calm, peaceful, modern western society. Have you ever heard of a kingdom run by God's chosen people being established here on earth? If God had intended for that to happen relatively soon when he had the Torah written, it would make perfect sense for both apparently objectionable acts. You cannot have a perfect society with a bunch of God and parent hating rebellious kids running around eventually turning into grownups. The sabbath was serious business. If you were God's special people, it was a serious affront to God to ignore the day especially carved out for him and him alone. You may not like a God who wants that kind of worship, but that is what you got. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
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Gullwind1 Junior Member (Idle past 4458 days) Posts: 12 Joined:
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Do you really not see what you just did? You denied believing in a god of situational ethics, then went and described the situation that justifies what we would consider immoral by today's standards.
That is the very definition of situational ethics.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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foreveryoung writes: No, I don't believe in a God of situational ethics. It is moral to kill someone who is going to kill your family. It is immoral to kill someone because he ticked you off. Get it? I doubt it. That is hardly the situation we are talking about now is it? We are talking about slaughtering a whole community - men, women and children. Not only that but you are using the people who are supposed to be bringing your message of peace and love to the world as the instruments of this slaughter and just consider what that does to them. We are talking about getting a group together to stone to death someone picking up firewood on the Sabbath.
foreveryoung writes: That is because you are assuming the situation in ancient palestine is identical to the situation in calm, peaceful, modern western society. Have you ever heard of a kingdom run by God's chosen people being established here on earth? If God had intended for that to happen relatively soon when he had the Torah written, it would make perfect sense for both apparently objectionable acts. You cannot have a perfect society with a bunch of God and parent hating rebellious kids running around eventually turning into grownups. The sabbath was serious business. If you were God's special people, it was a serious affront to God to ignore the day especially carved out for him and him alone. You may not like a God who wants that kind of worship, but that is what you got. How about the world that Jesus lived in? Jesus came to establish His Kingdom. But HIs Kingdom is led by serving, by mercy, by justice for all, by forgiveness etc and as His followers that is what we are called to. Jesus lived in a land occupied and controlled by Romans and with a puppet government of quislings. There was a rebellion when Jesus was 10 years old that would have resulted in Him seeing hundreds of crucified freedom fighters along the roadsides. In spite of that, he told his fellow Jews that they were to love the Romans, go the extra mile for the Romans and to even turn the other cheek. Now, just how do you square that with the image of the Yahweh in the passages mentioned? As I’ve said, I believe in a God who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I worship a God that we see revealed in Jesus. Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. He shed a bright light on all of the Hebrew Scriptures so that we could properly understand what was of God and what wasn’t. The version of Yahweh from the OT that you worship, the one who’s answer to just about everything is to have them stoned to death, and the who sometimes advocates genocide is not what we see embodied in Jesus. IMHO, misunderstanding how we are to understand the Scriptures gives you a warped view of God and in some minds a dangerous view of God. If you are really serious about understanding the Bible literally then why don’t you get a group of like thinking friends next Sunday, and stone to death the guy running the local corner store? As I’m sure you are serious about following the Bible literally I’m sure you have given all that you have to the poor. It goes on and on. The Bible is not intended to be read literally and frankly it would make no sense to do so even if it was possible. God is so much bigger than that. Jesus is so much bigger than that. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
That is hardly the situation we are talking about now is it? We are talking about slaughtering a whole community - men, women and children. There was a very good reason for slaughtering the whole community. Why do you question God's motivations?
Not only that but you are using the people who are supposed to be bringing your message of peace and love to the world as the instruments of this slaughter and just consider what that does to them The purpose of israel was not supposed to be bringing a message of peace and love. That is you putting your own goals as God's goals. The purpose of israel was to let the world know who the true god was. It was to put a glaring contrast between Jehovah and baal or ra or whoever they had as god's back then.
We are talking about getting a group together to stone to death someone picking up firewood on the Sabbath. That is exactly what should have been done. The sabbath was for man and not for God. It was essential that the sabbath be strictly followed for man's own good.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
How about the world that Jesus lived in? Jesus came to establish His Kingdom. But HIs Kingdom is led by serving, by mercy, by justice for all, by forgiveness etc and as His followers that is what we are called to. I don't see any contradiction here because you do not know what the purpose of his kingdom was. There were no caananites or jebusites or baal worshipers at the time of Jesus. There was no need to annihilate a whole community of people. Israel had already lost her kingdom. It had now been taken over by the romans.
Jesus lived in a land occupied and controlled by Romans and with a puppet government of quislings. There was a rebellion when Jesus was 10 years old that would have resulted in Him seeing hundreds of crucified freedom fighters along the roadsides. In spite of that, he told his fellow Jews that they were to love the Romans, go the extra mile for the Romans and to even turn the other cheek. Now, just how do you square that with the image of the Yahweh in the passages mentioned? I see no contradiction at all. Why do you? Slaughtering whole communites was not about inflicting revenge. Your problem is that you ascribe evil motives to the works of God in the OT where there are none.
As I’ve said, I believe in a God who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I worship a God that we see revealed in Jesus. I believe the same. The only problem is that you don't have a clue what was really revealed in Jesus.
Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. He shed a bright light on all of the Hebrew Scriptures so that we could properly understand what was of God and what wasn’t. I agree , but you still have failed to grasp just what Jesus was teaching.
The version of Yahweh from the OT that you worship, the one who’s answer to just about everything is to have them stoned to death, and the who sometimes advocates genocide is not what we see embodied in Jesus. The Yahweh from the OT is the exact same person as the Jesus of the NT. Modern scholarship inspired by the devil makes you think otherwise. What God did in the OT was not genocide like that of pol pot. It was the removal of evil from a land that was promised to a chosen people. Any people who had remained unkilled, would still hold on to their ancient religion and culture and lead the people of Israel astray, and that is exactly what they did. See how you missed the wisdom of God in your self righteous declarations of what he should and shouldn't do?
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
IMHO, misunderstanding how we are to understand the Scriptures gives you a warped view of God and in some minds a dangerous view of God. I agree, and that is the reason you should reconsider your understanding of the scriptures.
If you are really serious about understanding the Bible literally then why don’t you get a group of like thinking friends next Sunday, and stone to death the guy running the local corner store? Why would I? Is the guy running the local store a caananite. Am I part of israel and is israel beginning to set up her holy kingdom here on earth? No, on both counts.
As I’m sure you are serious about following the Bible literally I’m sure you have given all that you have to the poor. It goes on and on. I do take the bible literally. Does it tell me specifically to give all my money to the poor, or was it talking to a specific individual at the time?
The Bible is not intended to be read literally and frankly it would make no sense to do so even if it was possible. It certainly is possible to do so, and it only makes sense when you give over your wisdom to God and allow him to let you understand.
God is so much bigger than that. Jesus is so much bigger than that. Much bigger than what? Telling us the truth? Of course he is bigger than any one thing he does. Does that mean that we should ignore everything he does because he is bigger than that? He did not give us his truth, and say: Take this however you want to take it. I don't really give a damn. Do as you wish and make up your own morality and judge things according to the wisdom of man. You don't have to seek out my wisdom.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Just more food for thought that may help the misconception that the God of the OT was different than the Jesus of the NT: It was God's plan to bring his kingdom in during the time of Jesus. If israel had accepted her king, the nations that rebelled against that kingdom would have been annihilated just like the ancient caananites. His kingdom has been postponed, but it will be brought back again and the book of revelation goes into detail on what will happen to man as a result of fighting against the estaablisment of that kingdom. It will get so bad that men will beg for the mountains to fall down upon them and crush them.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If israel had accepted her king, the nations that rebelled against that kingdom would have been annihilated just like the ancient caananites. Can you provide any evidence (e.g quotes from scripture) that Jesus said any such thing?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Like the rest of the bible, Jesus doesn't tell us everything that is going to happen. He did however say some ominous things. He said that not one stone would be left upon the other of the temple. Most of the temple is destroyed but the wailing wall remains. Knocking that completely down tells me that something awful would be required. Another thing he said was that woe to nursing moms in those days if it were on a sabbath, speaking about a day of reckoning.
Here is the passage in question: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened That tells me there will be much carnage on a particular day. It wasn't necessary in the short span of the book of matthew to include every little detail. I would assume the destruction of nations bent on israels destruction would be part of the picture Jesus is warning us about.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
None of these address the question I asked.
As I understand your post, you claimed that had Israel accepted rather than rejected Jesus, that Jesus would have created an earthly kingdom rather than a heavenly one, and that he would have done so by annihilating Israel's enemies. I note that this outcome would seem to avoid having Jesus die on the cross for our sins. In response to my request for a confirming passage of scripture, you give me a passage that describes the destruction of the temple. That's your evidence? My impression is that your theory is complete and utter nonsense. Jesus never claimed to be the military messiah many Jews were expecting. Whatever you are describing sure does not seem to be Biblical. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
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