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Author Topic:   Modern Civics
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 31 of 236 (647023)
01-07-2012 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
01-07-2012 4:08 AM


I haven't given citizenship tests much thought. I don't see the point of making sure that immigrants know information that most adult citizens probably have either forgotten or never knew.
Well, at least that's consistent.
We could say that about many artificial barriers to voting.
But most "artificial barriers to voting" don't have that much of a rationale. Whereas there is at least something to be said for the idea that people should have some basic idea of how democracy works before we let them join in.
I should say that I'm not terribly keen on the idea, I just don't think it's as bad as you paint it either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 01-07-2012 4:08 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 236 (647056)
01-08-2012 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Adequate
01-07-2012 7:32 PM


Suppose you're worried about the garbage dump in your back yard, and you want to vote for a mayoral candidate who's against it. Someone says: "But before we let you vote for a mayor, you've got to know whether the mayor of this town is subject to term limits".
If you decide that you can't be bothered to learn that in order to be qualified to vote, how much did you care in the first place?
The obvious answer is that I cared immensely, but the city knew that me and my neighbors, poor Spanish-speaking manual laborers that we are, don't have the time or resources enough to learn such and such arbitrary fact about Joe Dickhead and his opponent Jim Blowjob running for mayor or the office that they're running for and so figured setting up a city dump in our backyard would be ideal as we'd be unable to pass the medieval torture tests required to vote against the policy and they wouldn't have to worry about our opposition... or all the cancer our children would be getting.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-07-2012 7:32 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Perdition, posted 01-09-2012 11:25 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 236 (647058)
01-08-2012 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dr Adequate
01-07-2012 7:37 PM


Whereas there is at least something to be said for the idea that people should have some basic idea of how democracy works before we let them join in.
But they already know everything there is to know about how democracy works, which is that they have an opinion and they can voice it through voting. The rest is all arbitrary icing and sprinkles. And not particularly tasty stuff either.
Jon

Love your enemies!

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 34 of 236 (647346)
01-09-2012 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by NoNukes
01-07-2012 3:48 AM


What kind of test would have uncovered such a thing? Who gets to select the test questions? How do we prevent politics from creeping into the test? I cannot imagine that people who identify themselves as Republicans would think my summary of the policy positions of the leading Republican candidates were unbiased.
Well, for one thing, we could have the candidate him/herself fill out a questionaire. I know it could still lead to the candidates lying to get elected, but we would also then have a written statement we could use to show they lied, etc.
What should happen in an election is that the candidates provide enough info to allow voters to make a decision. If one candidate is lying or over promising, that candidates opponent has every opportunity to expose him.
Indeed, but people who pay little to no attention to what either candidate says are not going to have "their" candidate exposed to them. Then they vote, and then are shocked when "their" candidate, now elected, does something they think is wrong, but was exactly what he/she promised to do.

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 35 of 236 (647350)
01-09-2012 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jon
01-08-2012 12:10 AM


The obvious answer is that I cared immensely, but the city knew that me and my neighbors, poor Spanish-speaking manual laborers that we are, don't have the time or resources enough to learn such and such arbitrary fact about Joe Dickhead and his opponent Jim Blowjob running for mayor or the office that they're running for and so figured setting up a city dump in our backyard would be ideal as we'd be unable to pass the medieval torture tests required to vote against the policy and they wouldn't have to worry about our opposition... or all the cancer our children would be getting.
But what about if you care that they want to build a dump in your backyard. The Referendum Question says "Should the policy enacted on whether a dump be built at such and such location be passed?" Does that mean you vote for it or against it? Was the policy that was enacted one that provided for the building of the dump or one that opposed it?
I'm not advocating for a voting test to prevent people from voting, per se. I want the test to be an informational one that ensures that the people voting for a candidate or policy are actually aware of what they're voting for.
Edited by Perdition, : Half my post disappeared.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 01-08-2012 12:10 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 36 of 236 (647352)
01-09-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
01-07-2012 5:21 AM


Re: Voting Tests
Any right-to-vote test is a moral abomination and has no place in a free democracy.
Anyone thinking otherwise needs to get their head out of the clouds that are in their ass.
A right-to-vote test can have a place in a free democracy.
Anyone who proclaims that is impossible is a pompous ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 01-07-2012 5:21 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 01-09-2012 11:54 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 236 (647353)
01-09-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Perdition
01-09-2012 11:25 AM


I don't even understand what you're getting at with this.
I think Jos is entirely aware that he is going into the booth for the sole purpose of voting against the placement of a city landfill behind his house.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Perdition, posted 01-09-2012 11:25 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Perdition, posted 01-09-2012 11:59 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 236 (647355)
01-09-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
01-09-2012 11:36 AM


Re: Voting Tests
Anyone who proclaims that is impossible is a pompous ass.
Guilty.
But what I've said still stands. Your requirement that people demonstrate a certain standard of intelligence before being allowed to participate in their government has no place in a free democracy.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-09-2012 11:36 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 01-09-2012 12:05 PM Jon has replied
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-09-2012 12:17 PM Jon has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(4)
Message 39 of 236 (647356)
01-09-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Artemis Entreri
01-06-2012 2:47 PM


I think a refresher should be necessary in order to keep your ability to vote, hold office, and receive a tax break
In the United States, you don't have the "ability" to vote, you have the right to vote. I think that's pretty important, and among the two of us, I'm the one who thinks like a conservative, because I'm the one who believes we should preserve the rights afforded to us by the Constitution.
You, on the other hand, are some kind of radical who wants to fundamentally change what it means to be an American.

This message is a reply to:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 40 of 236 (647358)
01-09-2012 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jon
01-09-2012 11:51 AM


I think Jos is entirely aware that he is going into the booth for the sole purpose of voting against the placement of a city landfill behind his house.
Yes, but the wording of referenda can be, and often are, misleading, especially if Jose happens to be less than perfect in his understanding of written English.
Many times, it may seem that voting "No" on a referendum question means voting against that which it's about, but in reality, you need to vote "yes" to approve the policy banning the action.
The test would ensure that everyone voting is aware of what each question on the referendum means.
It could be as simple as, "Does voting "yes" on this question approve or ban the building of the landfill?"
If the person answers that question correctly, they can then go vote. If they answer incorrectly, they are informed on what the question is actually asking. They then retake the test, and after passing it, are allowed to vote.
There are far too many examples of people voting counter to how they thought they voted for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 01-09-2012 11:51 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 01-09-2012 12:20 PM Perdition has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 236 (647359)
01-09-2012 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
01-09-2012 11:54 AM


Re: Voting Tests
Jon writes:
Your requirement that people demonstrate a certain standard of intelligence before being allowed to participate in their government has no place in a free democracy.
First of all, we are not a free democracy. We are a republic, and we are not built to support every darn human on the planet. Altruistic though it may sound, it is simply feasibly impossible. In order to change the system, the voters must be educated. Using the teeming masses to change society will only lead to more wars in order to eliminate them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 01-09-2012 11:54 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 42 of 236 (647360)
01-09-2012 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
01-09-2012 11:54 AM


Re: Voting Tests
But what I've said still stands.
Stands as an unsupported assertion...
Your requirement that people demonstrate a certain standard of intelligence before being allowed to participate in their government has no place in a free democracy.
Sure there is. For example, you have to be competent enough to vote in the first place. We're not going to wheelchair vegetables into the booth to push a random button.
You're gonna hafta allow for a line to be drawn somewhere before we can discuss where it should be. But the absolute denial of a line anywhere is patently false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 01-09-2012 11:54 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 01-09-2012 12:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 236 (647361)
01-09-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Perdition
01-09-2012 11:59 AM


Yes, but the wording of referenda can be, and often are, misleading,
Isn't that a problem with the language on the ballot?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Perdition, posted 01-09-2012 11:59 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Perdition, posted 01-09-2012 12:47 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 44 of 236 (647364)
01-09-2012 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
01-09-2012 12:05 PM


Re: Voting Tests
First of all, we are not a free democracy. We are a republic, ...
quote:
Wikipedia on Republic:
A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people. This is known as representative democracy. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10. This meaning was widely adopted early in the history of the United States, including in Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828.
Even an indirect democracy can be a free one.
In order to change the system, the voters must be educated.
Couldn't agree with you more.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 01-09-2012 12:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 236 (647365)
01-09-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by New Cat's Eye
01-09-2012 12:17 PM


Re: Voting Tests
We're not going to wheelchair vegetables into the booth to push a random button.
And that is our loss as a society.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-09-2012 12:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-09-2012 12:35 PM Jon has replied

  
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