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Author Topic:   Modern Civics
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 65 of 236 (647468)
01-09-2012 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
01-09-2012 6:00 PM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
One of the questions was: "Which is the only party that wants to raise the basic rate of income tax?" And I was the only person who got it right. Anyone else basing their vote on that one way or the other would have voted for the wrong party.
And this is entirely my point. Taxes just happens to be one of the most widely reported reasons for voting for a candidate, and most people are woefully ignorant about even which party will do what to their taxes, let alone a particular person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-09-2012 6:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 67 of 236 (647471)
01-09-2012 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by crashfrog
01-09-2012 6:15 PM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
Right, and the Constitution prevents Congress from restricting the right of writ of habeas corpus.
But not the President. Lincoln did just this during the Civil War. But that was just before this bill was signed, if I remember correctly.
Surely this isn't your first experience with an entirely manufactured controversy?
No, it's not, unfortunately. It's my fault for throwing this out there without actually taking the time to understand it myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 01-09-2012 6:15 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 68 of 236 (647472)
01-09-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Artemis Entreri
01-09-2012 3:02 PM


Rights of a Citizen
Ok, I finally found the time to actually look on Wikipedia: Citizenship of the United States - Wikipedia
wikipedia writes:
Duties
U.S. citizens may be summoned to serve on a jury.Jury duty is only imposed upon citizens. Jury duty may be considered the "sole differential obligation" between non-citizens and citizens; the federal and state courts "uniformly exclude non-citizens from jury pools today, and with the exception of a few states in the past, this has always been the case.[10] Today there are indications jury duty is declining;[11] there are fewer trials. Newspaper reports have chronicled the decline of juries, and noted how many people don't get summonses, and how Americans see jury duty as an "inconvenient" chore.[11]
Military participation is not currently required in the United States, but a policy of conscription of men has been in place at various times (both in war and in peace) in American history, most recently during the Vietnam War. Currently, the United States armed forces are a professional all-volunteer force, although both male U.S. citizens and male non-citizen permanent residents are required to register with the Selective Service System and may be called up in the event of a future draft. Johns Hopkins University political scientist Benjamin Ginsberg wrote "the professional military has limited the need for citizen soldiers."[2]
Rights
The U.S. military has been an all-volunteer force since the end of the Vietnam War but male U.S. citizens and non-citizens are still required to register for the military draft within 30 days of their 18th birthday.Freedom to reside and work. United States citizens have the right to reside and work in the United States. Certain non-citizens, such as permanent residents, have similar rights. However, non-citizens, unlike citizens, may have the right taken away: for example, they may be deported if convicted of a serious crime. There are many jobs, opportunities, and educational opportunities. Some immigrants see citizenship as a way of "locking in economic gains that they have made as legal residents."[12] One person said "People don’t feel that being permanent residents is enough to secure their future in this country. They would just feel more secure as citizens."[12]
Freedom to enter and leave the United States. United States citizens have the right to enter and leave the United States freely. Certain non-citizens, such as permanent residents, have similar rights.
Voting for federal office is restricted to citizens in all fifty states and the District of Columbia. States are not required to extend the franchise to all citizens: for example, several states bar citizen felons from voting, even after they have completed any custodial sentence. The United States Constitution bars states from restricting citizens from voting on grounds of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, failure to pay any tax, or age (for citizens who are at least eighteen years old). Historically, many states and local jurisdictions have allowed non-citizens to vote; however, today this is limited to local elections in very few places. Voting is not required, unlike nations such as Australia and Belgium where citizens can be fined for failing to vote. Historically, voting rates in presidential elections by eligible citizens hover around the 50% level, although the recent election of Barack Obama in 2008 saw levels rise over 60%. Legal immigrants are sometimes motivated to become citizens for a chance to exercise voting power.[12]
Freedom to stand for public office. The United States Constitution requires that all members of the United States House of Representatives have been citizens for seven years, and that all senators have been citizens for nine years, before taking office. Most states have similar requirements: for example California requires that legislators have been citizens for three years, and the Governor have been a citizen for five years, upon taking office. The U.S. Constitution requires that one be "a natural born Citizen" and a U.S. resident for fourteen years in order to be President of the United States.
The Constitution also stipulates that otherwise eligible citizens must be at least 35 years old to be eligible to be president, at least 25 years old to be a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, and at least 30 years old to be a U.S. Senator.
Substantial benefits
Consular protection outside the United States. While traveling abroad, if a person is arrested or detained by foreign authorities, the person can request to speak to somebody from the U.S. Embassy or Consulate. Consular officials can provide resources for Americans incarcerated abroad, such as a list of local attorneys who speak English. The U.S. government may even intervene on the person's behalf.[13] For example, an American citizen named William E. Petty, who was jailed by authorities in France in 1854, petitioned U.S. authorities to intervene on his behalf.[14] In a twist of this principle, it's possible for foreign governments to confer citizenship on persons serving in jails in the United States.[15] But it illustrates how citizenship is a way to try to extend the hand of protection to nationals when incarcerated in foreign jails.
Access to social services. Many social services in the United States are only[dubious — discuss] eligible to American citizens.[13][not in citation given]
Citizens can compete as athletes for the United States Olympics team; President Reagan with Olympian Mary Lou Retton in 1987.Increased ability to sponsor relatives living abroad.[13] Several types of immigrant visas require that the person requesting the visa be directly related to a U.S. citizen. Having U.S. citizenship facilitates the granting of IR and F visas to family members.
Protection from deportation.[12][13] Naturalized U.S. citizens are no longer considered aliens and cannot be placed into deportation proceedings.
Other benefits. The USCIS sometimes honors the achievements of naturalized U.S. citizens. The 'Outstanding American by Choice Award' was created by the USCIS to recognize the outstanding achievements of naturalized U.S. citizens, and past recipients include author Elie Wiesel who won the Nobel Peace Prize; Indra K. Nooyi who is CEO of PepsiCo; John Shalikashvili who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; and others.[16] Further, citizenship status can affect which country an athlete can compete as a member of in competitions such as the Olympics.[17]

This message is a reply to:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 85 of 236 (647587)
01-10-2012 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Jon
01-09-2012 8:29 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
In many cases, I would agree with you, and in the case of building the dump in Jose's backyard, it could probably be made very simple.
But there are other referenda that can't be quite so easily reworded without giving the passed resolution more (or less) power than was intended. That's one of the issues with legal matters. It needs to be very exact in order to not allow what they don't intend, but still allow all that they do intend. It's for this reason that lawyers are needed for many contracts.
And as I've said, in many cases, it can seem like the wording is as simple and easy to understand as possible, and someone will still misunderstand it. My Father-in-Law would be a perfect example of someone who can read something simple and understand it completely wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 01-09-2012 8:29 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 12:32 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 86 of 236 (647590)
01-10-2012 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by caffeine
01-10-2012 6:40 AM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
The problem with some sort of voting test is that it opens up the possibility, however small, of being abused to prevent people from exercising their vote.
I agree that this is a legitimate concern, and one I take very seriously. I would propose that any national vote would have a nationally approved test, probably administered by computer, without asking for any personal information. It spits out a piece of paper with either "pass" or "fail" written on it. You then bring the piece of paper with "Pass" on it, along with anything else necessary to register to vote with you to the table and everything proceeds as it does now.
If you fail, you can either retake the test, or ask for a pamphlet that explains each question and what the correct answers are. You then retake the test.
I'm not advocating the test as a means of preventing people from voting...merely as a way to make sure they've been given every opportunity to understand the stakes of their vote.
I'm not at all sure that ensuring people know the stated positions of a candidate are a particularly good reason, since it doesn't seem to have much bearing on their behaviour once in office, anyway.
Well, it would do two things. First, it would provide, via the questionaire they fill out, a record of where they stand, and which can then be held against them (or by them) during the next election.
Secondly, it would mitigate the possibility of people voting for someone who has publicly stated that their goals are opposite of what the voter wants. Thus making it less likely for a costly recall election one year after an election and less than a year after a different round of recall elections. (This is going on right now in WI because people voted for a governor who then carried out his stated goals, but now people who voted for him are aghast that he's doing these things.)

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 88 of 236 (647593)
01-10-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 7:30 AM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
I believe you WIians have the government that you collectively wanted.
If that were the case, we wouldn't be in the middle of a second round of recall elections in less than a year.
Further, my guess is that your Republican laden legislature was elected for reasons other than for the purpose of passing the spectacularly goofy bills that they worked on last session.
Our governor ran on his policy of reducing the deficit and keeping taxes unchanged. In one meeting, he even mentioned removing all collective-bargaining rights from the public employee unions. So, if people voted for him for reasons other than the very things he campaigned on, then decided that him acting on his campaign promises was wrong, they're stupid (and I already mentioned that we'll never be able to get rid of stupid votes, nor should we).
I'm fairly certain, however, that had many of the people who voted for him and then signed recall petitions on him, been presented with his stated intentions, they would not have voted for him in the first place.
In any event, the definition of what constitutes informed is very subjective. Many voters care primarily about only a few criteria that simply are not important to other voters. Some things that you think are important might be issues that other voters don't even believe are likely to come up during the office holder's term.
True, and a truly comprehensive questionaire and test would be unfeasible in the extreme. But, a set of questions based on what the polls show as the major concerns of the voters in the jurisdiction over which the candidate hopes to have authority would not be too lengthy or too difficult. If the real issue the voter is concerned about is not in the test, then he's no worse off than he was before, and may even be better off, knowing where the candidate stands on some issues he may not have considered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 7:30 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 12:49 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 90 of 236 (647595)
01-10-2012 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 12:32 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
I've occasionally stepped into the voting booth only to find that I don't know enough about a resolution or candidate to vote on it. In the case of candidates, I might take the short cut of voting by party affiliation, but in the case of a resolution, I simply abstain from voting if the complete text of the resolution is not available.
Same here, but that is not the case of many people, who feel they need to vote on everything on the ballot.
But even knowing the text is not enough reason to vote. Resolutions generally have some economic cost to implement, and unless you are a no-new-taxes fundamentalist, you need to do your cost/benefit analysis before you get into the booth.
This is what the test would show...or the pamphlet given after failing the test. It would show what the immediate effects of passage or defeat of the resolution would be.
But I don't see any way to enforce doing your homework before voting using an exam. Because some people might well be the kind of fundamentalists that legitimately reaches their opinion without needing to do any homework.
If they already have their minds made up, it would be quite easy to game the test. You're given a pamhplet with the correct answers after a failure of the test. Again, this wouldn't really be a bar for anyone to vote, it would not stop stupid peiople from voting stupidly. What it would do is make sure everyone has access to the information before voting, and might even give some people who thought they understood and had their minds made up a chance to reconsider.
If handled properly, this test would do nothing more than make it take a little longer to vote. Now, that might end up making soime people not vote, but in the last few presidential elections, lines have stretched for blocks and taken hours to get through. So many are willing to wait, and those that aren't are already often faced with being forced to walk away.
I would also be willing to waive the test should it be shown that it is taking too long or people are deciding to leave because of the time involved. And definitely if it is shown that people are feeling as if they are being denied the right to vote at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 12:32 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 12:53 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 95 of 236 (647608)
01-10-2012 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 12:49 PM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
It takes a rather small minority of eligible voters to initiate a recall. In fact, given the small percentage of people who actually turn out for the general election, and the outrage generated by the union issue, I don't think even a successful recall election proves all that much. I suspect I could have gotten half of the signatures needed for a recall by standing outside of the state house during the protests.
True, to initiate a recall, it takes just one petitioner...but s/he then needs to collect signatures equalling 25% of the number of people who voted in the last election for governor in the electoral district of the officer being recalled.
So, theoretically, in a close election, all you need to do is get half of the people who voted against a guy to sign the petition and you've got a recall going. However, if the person being recalled loses, it would seem to indicate that either the people who supported him/her originally changed sides, or weren't passionate enough to vote for him/her twice.
But what I'm specifically worried about are the people who vote for a guy, then, not only choose not to vote for him again, but actually sign the petition for his recall and vote against him. Especially when he's doign what he said he would do. It would seem that if people had known what he said he would do, they would not have voted for him, does it not?
I suspect that WI election for governor was largely determined by those who decided not to vote.
Not really. If you assume that those who chose not to vote would vote approximately equal to those who did vote, then the results would be the same, naturally.
2,133167 people voted total. It came to about 52%-48%. There were 5,686,986 people in WI in 2010, of which 23.6% are below 18. So there were 4,344,857 eligible voters. That comes to 49%. That's a fairly large sample size on whcih to base the trend for the state.
I think your idealism is showing.
I'm sure it is. But I'm not asking for as much as you seem to be thinking. It shouldn't bar anyone from voting, and if it does, I'd fully support doing away with the whole thing. Just because my idea seems to idealistic, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to figure out a way to get more voters informed.
I would like to believe that when all of the facts are laid out and considered that everyone would vote exactly as I do (absent some fundamental differences between us that are easy to recognize).
Well, obviously I think I'm on the right side. But I respect that informed people on the other side feel the same. It's the people who have no idea why they're voting or who they're voting for that frustrates me.
But again, I'm not suggesting we ban anyone from voting. If people are determined to vote for someone without knowing a thing about them...or only what they hear on the pundit TV shows, then all they need to do is fail the test, answer based on the pamphlet, and then go on about their business.
If the news media in this country weren't so worried about "access" and "entertainment" I wouldn't feel so passionate about this, but many people don't know where to begin to learn about the candidates, but still feel the need to vote.
Uninformed voters are not the same as stupid voters. I want to fix the former, and the latter can do as they wish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 12:49 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 4:09 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 96 of 236 (647613)
01-10-2012 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 12:53 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
I think the test would be abused and become a propaganda tool policed by those currently in power.
It might, but I would endeavor to make it unlikely as possible. Computerized questions that don't require any personal info to be entered to start or finish the test. Answers provided by the candidates themselves after answering a questionaire. Topics picked by selecting the most pressing concerns of the population across multiple polls.
It is already the case that there are subtle efforts by those in power in my jurisdiction to discourage or make it inconvenient for likely supporters of the opposition to vote.
That's terrible. I'm lucky enough to live in an area that seems to allow pelple to vote in peace. But are these subtle efforts outside the voting area, or after epople have registered? If it's before, then this test would reduce the effect of those efforts. If it's after, then that's illegal and should be pointed out and stopped.
I don't trust anyone to write such a test.
Would you feel more comfortable if the test were relegated only to resolutions that have a simpler description and explanation than the inconsistencies and baggage that comes with a human candidate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 12:53 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 4:45 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 97 of 236 (647616)
01-10-2012 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Artemis Entreri
01-10-2012 1:03 PM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
Interesting that you mention those. When they bill of rights where ratified in 1791 were women citizens? Were Native Americans? Blacks? Were women protected? Did they have rights? Could they vote? Could they own property?
Or were they simply Residents? Savage animals? And Property?
How could these groups gain rights, gain citizenship, gain freedom? Wouldn’t giving them shared freedoms redefine everything in the US?
just to be pedantic
Are you suggesting we go back to those times? I'm in favor of everyone keeping all the rights, regardless of gender, race, or creed.
We’d probably have to grandfather everyone in who was already a citizen at the time of the new rules passing, but everyone else, would have to test out.
And change all of our laws and rules to ensure that every right currently enjoyed by a citizen is retained by "residents." We'd then have to redefine people who live here but aren't currently citizens. Then we'd need to change every law that pertains to them to make sure their new status doesn't lose any rights and freedoms they enjoy.
It just sounds like a lot of unnecessary work, when we're only talking about voting...and not even the right to vote, per se, just another step in registration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-10-2012 1:03 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 98 of 236 (647617)
01-10-2012 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Artemis Entreri
01-10-2012 1:21 PM


I should clarify. I was also speaking on a Federal Level. State and local elections are completely different.
I'd like to see them on a local level as well, or at least have informational material, not necessarily a test, describing each resolution and candidate.
I've often found, when voting for a local office, like sheriff or school board, that not only do I not know a thing about the people besides their name from lawn signs, there is no easy way to learn anything.
And for local resolutions, refer to my debate with Jon on Jose's poor backyard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-10-2012 1:21 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-10-2012 1:57 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 100 of 236 (647626)
01-10-2012 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Artemis Entreri
01-10-2012 1:57 PM


Nope. It just seemed as if redefining things was an issue for you, when this nation is pretty much about redefinition every 30-50 years anyway.
I think it's unnecessary. The country has been moving toward a broader and broader definition of citizen. At this point, we're as broad as we can get without granting animals and plants citizenship.
You may be talking about voting, but I have been talking about citizenship since I answered the OP.
So, why would you want to limit the number of people who have rights in this country? Or would citizens just have different rights from residents, and what would those rights be?
You have to be involved in your community and care about it. It is only your own fault for being uneducated in your own community, on community issues.
I am involved in my community. The problem is that say IO want to run for school baord. I gather signatures, and I'm on the ballot. Now, how does anyone know to vote for me over the other guy? Purely based on party affiliation? Most of our local positions are either run unopposed, in whcih case I don't vote for them, I write my name in, or there are two people, one from each party. There are no debates, and unless the newspaper takes the time to send them a voluntary questionaire and they take the time to fill it in and send it back, there is literally no way to know what anyone stands for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-10-2012 1:57 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-11-2012 1:10 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 102 of 236 (647648)
01-10-2012 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 4:09 PM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
There is at least third possibility; namely that a whole bunch of people who couldn't be bothered to vote in the general election, are now incensed.
This is certainly a possibility. From my own, admittedly limited, experience, there are more than a handful of people who voted for Walker and are now not only going to vote against him, but have been actively seeking signatures. It's not like it's everyone who voted for him, but if this group had voted against him in the first place, might it have changed the election? Possibly. Would knowing Walker's agenda before voting have convinced them to vote against him? Possibly.
A sample yes, but does the sample statistically represent the opinions of people who did not vote? Perhaps not.
Well, polls use considerably less than 49% of a population and are relatively accurate...especially when outliers are removed and the rest are averaged together.
I suspect that a large segment of social conservatives in WI were energized by the passing of the sex education curriculum by Democrats in the previous session of your legislature. Democrats might not have been similarly motivated to maintain the status quo.
Added by the fact that Barrett is one of the worst campaigners I've ever seen. He was just awful.
My guess is that even fewer people than voted in the general election are going to vote in the recall election and that the recall favoring voters may find an edge in motivation to vote.
I would guess that fewer people will vote, but I'm not so sure that will significantly favor the recallers. Many of the signatures on petitions are signed by family members of the signature collecter, or outside businesses people are already goign to. In other words, it's convenient and fulfills some desire to give voice to complaints. Will those same people force themselves to drive down to the voting place, stand in line and cast a vote? I don't know.
On the other hand. There are a lot of people who are sick and tired of elections and recalls and political TV ads. Some of these may stay home and ignore it. Others may use it as motivation to keep Walker in and stop the nonsense. I'm fairly sure that if he wins the recall, that will be the end of recalls for a while. There is also a lot of claiming sour grapes from the conservatives, saying that we're doing the recall just because we lost. They'll also have a point to prove.
Basically, there are a lot of reasons to vote and a lot fo reasons to not on both sides of the issue. I'm not confident claiming any side has an advantage, other than saying I'm confident he'll lose the recall election. But whether that's because many people have changed their minds, people who voted for him once don't feel any push to vote for him again, or some other reason, I leave to the historians of the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 4:09 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 104 of 236 (647678)
01-10-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 4:45 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
Both at the polls and prior to voting, and in most cases the efforts use methods that are not illegal. Examples would include robo-calls to segments of the population offering false information about voting dates, aggressive challenging of voters at the polls requiring specific forms of identification when multiple forms are allowed, switching polling places and not bothering to inform voters. I've seen these tactics used in several southern states in ways that attempt to targeted voting preference.
In VA I've also seen campaigns to identify voters who may have changed addresses using unreliable information, and to challenge said voter at the polling place. Often no mention is made of provisions in law that allow a challenged voter to cast a provisional vote at any polling place.
Often efforts are down using one or more proxies for race which are used in turn as a proxy for identifying likely voting preferences.
I know these things happen, and it just sounds wrong that there isn't a legal recourse for people affected by these tactics.
Yes, if you let me write the test.
Be my guest...as long as it is also checked by the person who wrote the resolution to make sure you're not misrepresenting it, as well as maybe a judge to make sure the effects of the resolution are accurately spelled out in as unbiased a way as possible.
Kidding aside, certainly there are some propositions that can yield to a simple, noncontroversial description, but I'm concerned that even in those cases it is possible to manipulate the description.
I'm thinking of this more along the lines of a translation from legalese. For example, we recently had a resolution that was something similar to, "Should the special fund set up for the creation of a park on the south side of town be used to help fun a civic center downtown?"
It's pretty easy to figure out what voting "Yes" means, but what about voting "no"? Does that mean the civic center will not be built? Does it mean it will be built but taxes will then be raised to pay for it? Does it mean it will need to be on another referendum to find another source of funding? A simple explanation that says what it actually means to vote yes or no would have been helpful. IIRC, I voted incorrectly on that question when it came up. (The exact fund and policy are made up, but the gist of the wording is pretty close.)
Incidentally, there was an early Supreme Court case that involved a physical altercation for the purpose prevent a man from voting. The Court found no violation of the constitution, and held that voters were expected to vigorously defend their right to vote, with force of arms if necessary. Perhaps I'm just a wuss about this.
So, they essentially ruled that people don't have the right to vote, they have the right to fight to vote? Crazy.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 6:05 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 106 of 236 (647691)
01-10-2012 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 6:05 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
Why make a quiz out of the information?
I was actually pondering this very question today. It might fit my desire to simply have the information easily available at all voting places. That way, anyone who wants to know can easily do so.
The thing is, I'm still kind of leaning toward the reading or viewing of the information being mandatory. Far too many people thnk they know what a candidate's positions are, or what a resolution means, but find out later they were wrong.
And then, if it's mandatory, how do we make sure people are in fact reading the stuff? It could be as simple as putting it on a computer and tracking that someone reads to the bottom, but how many user agreement licenses that require a person to scroll down to the bottom before acceptance really get read?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 6:05 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2012 12:27 PM Perdition has replied

  
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