Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Modern Civics
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 19 of 236 (646825)
01-06-2012 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Perdition
01-06-2012 2:55 PM


Citizenship confers a lot more rights than just being able to vote or run for office. I'd be leery about taking away citizenship unless a test is passed...but voting rights are another thing entirely. I'm all for a test before being able to vote.
So not knowing how state and local government works means I have no valid opinion on whether a proposed garbage dump should be located in my backyard? Ignorance of how government works completely invalidates my opinion on a woman's right to chose abortion?
I think a voting rights test is unjustifiable, elitist, nonsense. Further, voter testing has historically been abused to disenfranchise voters. I ain't for it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Perdition, posted 01-06-2012 2:55 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Perdition, posted 01-06-2012 5:12 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-06-2012 5:44 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 29 by Omnivorous, posted 01-07-2012 7:09 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 22 of 236 (646874)
01-07-2012 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Perdition
01-06-2012 5:12 PM


I've seen way too many people vote for a candidate, and then, when that candidate does things they said they would do, the person who voted for them is shocked and outraged
What kind of test would have uncovered such a thing? Who gets to select the test questions? How do we prevent politics from creeping into the test? I cannot imagine that people who identify themselves as Republicans would think my summary of the policy positions of the leading Republican candidates were unbiased.
What should happen in an election is that the candidates provide enough info to allow voters to make a decision. If one candidate is lying or over promising, that candidates opponent has every opportunity to expose him.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Perdition, posted 01-06-2012 5:12 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Perdition, posted 01-09-2012 11:17 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 23 of 236 (646876)
01-07-2012 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate
01-06-2012 5:44 PM


Wouldn't this work equally well as an argument against citizenship tests for immigrants? I too don't want a garbage dump in my back yard, just give me the vote already. If that is what you propose, then that's consistent, but if it isn't then I'd like you to explain the difference.
I haven't given citizenship tests much thought. I don't see the point of making sure that immigrants know information that most adult citizens probably have either forgotten or never knew.
Anyone who can't be bothered probably didn't feel that strongly about voting in the first place.
We could say that about many artificial barriers to voting. If you cannot be bothered to learn interpret an arbitrarily chosen section of the constitution to the satisfaction of an Alabama clerk who really doesn't want you to vote, then why should you be able to vote?
The fact is that people can have perfectly valid reasons to vote for or against a candidate or proposition without knowing much civics.
I imagine that illiterate, former slaves in 1868 had perfectly good reasons for not voting for Democrats in local elections.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-06-2012 5:44 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-07-2012 7:37 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 236 (647521)
01-10-2012 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
01-07-2012 6:13 AM


Re: Voting Tests
. They are easily swayed by campaign ads and news infotainment propaganda.
Being easily swayed isn't a condition limited to the uneducated.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 01-07-2012 6:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 236 (647526)
01-10-2012 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Perdition
01-09-2012 5:17 PM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
he uninformed often end up being the swing vote. Especially in WI, which is about as purple as you can get. I have a hard time thinking that an uninformed vote carries as much weight as my informed one.
I'm not convinced. I believe you WIians have the government that you collectively wanted. Further, my guess is that your Republican laden legislature was elected for reasons other than for the purpose of passing the spectacularly goofy bills that they worked on last session.
In any event, the definition of what constitutes informed is very subjective. Many voters care primarily about only a few criteria that simply are not important to other voters. Some things that you think are important might be issues that other voters don't even believe are likely to come up during the office holder's term.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Perdition, posted 01-09-2012 5:17 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 12:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 87 of 236 (647592)
01-10-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Perdition
01-10-2012 12:19 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
But there are other referenda that can't be quite so easily reworded without giving the passed resolution more (or less) power than was intended.
I've occasionally stepped into the voting booth only to find that I don't know enough about a resolution or candidate to vote on it. In the case of candidates, I might take the short cut of voting by party affiliation, but in the case of a resolution, I simply abstain from voting if the complete text of the resolution is not available.
But even knowing the text is not enough reason to vote. Resolutions generally have some economic cost to implement, and unless you are a no-new-taxes fundamentalist, you need to do your cost/benefit analysis before you get into the booth.
But I don't see any way to enforce doing your homework before voting using an exam. Because some people might well be the kind of fundamentalists that legitimately reaches their opinion without needing to do any homework.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 12:19 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 12:43 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 122 by Jon, posted 01-11-2012 6:14 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 89 of 236 (647594)
01-10-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by New Cat's Eye
01-10-2012 10:37 AM


Re: Voting Tests
Um, vegetables are unable to have a voice and pushing a random button isn't one.
What if the proposition in question is related to whether the state will enforce living wills, and the person in the vegetative state has such a will? One might argue that the person has already voiced his intentions and that he should be allowed to vote by proxy.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-10-2012 10:37 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 236 (647598)
01-10-2012 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Perdition
01-10-2012 12:34 PM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
If that were the case, we wouldn't be in the middle of a second round of recall elections in less than a year.
It takes a rather small minority of eligible voters to initiate a recall. In fact, given the small percentage of people who actually turn out for the general election, and the outrage generated by the union issue, I don't think even a successful recall election proves all that much. I suspect I could have gotten half of the signatures needed for a recall by standing outside of the state house during the protests.
ABE
Students at a nearby campus were told that local elections were usually close enough such that the student voters alone were capable of determining the outcome if they voted as a bloc.
I suspect that WI election for governor was largely determined by those who decided not to vote.
end ABE
True, and a truly comprehensive questionaire and test would be unfeasible in the extreme. But, a set of questions based on what the polls show as the major concerns of the voters in the jurisdiction over which the candidate hopes to have authority would not be too lengthy or too difficult.
I think your idealism is showing. I would like to believe that when all of the facts are laid out and considered that everyone would vote exactly as I do (absent some fundamental differences between us that are easy to recognize). Yet a lot of apparently intelligent people managed to vote for McCain/Palin in the 2008 election.
Edited by NoNukes, : Marked as ABE

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 12:34 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 1:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 236 (647599)
01-10-2012 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Perdition
01-10-2012 12:43 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
If handled properly, this test would do nothing more than make it take a little longer to vote.
I think the test would be abused and become a propaganda tool policed by those currently in power. It is already the case that there are subtle efforts by those in power in my jurisdiction to discourage or make it inconvenient for likely supporters of the opposition to vote. I don't trust anyone to write such a test.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 12:43 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 1:32 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 236 (647645)
01-10-2012 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Perdition
01-10-2012 1:24 PM


Re: Rights of a Citizen
So, theoretically, in a close election, all you need to do is get half of the people who voted against a guy to sign the petition and you've got a recall going. However, if the person being recalled loses, it would seem to indicate that either the people who supported him/her originally changed sides, or weren't passionate enough to vote for him/her twice.
There is at least third possibility; namely that a whole bunch of people who couldn't be bothered to vote in the general election, are now incensed.
That comes to 49%. That's a fairly large sample size on whcih to base the trend for the state.
A sample yes, but does the sample statistically represent the opinions of people who did not vote? Perhaps not.
I suspect that a large segment of social conservatives in WI were energized by the passing of the sex education curriculum by Democrats in the previous session of your legislature. Democrats might not have been similarly motivated to maintain the status quo.
My guess is that even fewer people than voted in the general election are going to vote in the recall election and that the recall favoring voters may find an edge in motivation to vote.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 1:24 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 4:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 236 (647663)
01-10-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Perdition
01-10-2012 1:32 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
That's terrible. I'm lucky enough to live in an area that seems to allow pelple to vote in peace. But are these subtle efforts outside the voting area, or after epople have registered?
Both at the polls and prior to voting, and in most cases the efforts use methods that are not illegal. Examples would include robo-calls to segments of the population offering false information about voting dates, aggressive challenging of voters at the polls requiring specific forms of identification when multiple forms are allowed, switching polling places and not bothering to inform voters. I've seen these tactics used in several southern states in ways that attempt to targeted voting preference.
In VA I've also seen campaigns to identify voters who may have changed addresses using unreliable information, and to challenge said voter at the polling place. Often no mention is made of provisions in law that allow a challenged voter to cast a provisional vote at any polling place.
Often efforts are down using one or more proxies for race which are used in turn as a proxy for identifying likely voting preferences.
Would you feel more comfortable if the test were relegated only to resolutions that have a simpler description and explanation than the inconsistencies and baggage that comes with a human candidate?
Yes, if you let me write the test.
Kidding aside, certainly there are some propositions that can yield to a simple, noncontroversial description, but I'm concerned that even in those cases it is possible to manipulate the description.
Incidentally, there was an early Supreme Court case that involved a physical altercation for the purpose prevent a man from voting. The Court found no violation of the constitution, and held that voters were expected to vigorously defend their right to vote, with force of arms if necessary. Perhaps I'm just a wuss about this.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 1:32 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 5:04 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 236 (647689)
01-10-2012 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Perdition
01-10-2012 5:04 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
So, they essentially ruled that people don't have the right to vote, they have the right to fight to vote? Crazy.
I'm sure that the old SC case doesn't reflect current law.
I'm thinking of this more along the lines of a translation from legalese. For example, we recently had a resolution that was something similar to, "Should the special fund set up for the creation of a park on the south side of town be used to help fun a civic center downtown?"
Why make a quiz out of the information?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 5:04 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 6:19 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 236 (647817)
01-11-2012 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Perdition
01-10-2012 6:19 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
The thing is, I'm still kind of leaning toward the reading or viewing of the information being mandatory. Far too many people thnk they know what a candidate's positions are, or what a resolution means, but find out later they were wrong.
And what do we do with people who get a zero on the quiz?
If we are back to talking about candidate positions, I might well believe that candidate X is lying sob and that despite his claims to the contrary, he is going to send the National Guard to my house to collect my guns and melt them down to make a statue of General Grant. But in order to pass your quiz, I have to check off your box saying that candidate X is against gun control. Well I ain't falling for your jack booted mind control. .

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Perdition, posted 01-10-2012 6:19 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Perdition, posted 01-11-2012 12:57 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 236 (647854)
01-11-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Perdition
01-11-2012 12:57 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
Yep, and then you can go and vote based on your conviction that the person is lying. All we can do is make it so that people know what a candidate has proposed and said, what the voter and the candidate do after that is entirely up to each of them.
But I don't care what the person has said. Why do I need to read your propaganda regarding what you think I need to know in order to exercise my right to vote. I want my country back and my weapons cache, I mean gun collection intact, and that's what determines how I'm going to vote.
My point is that even a completely objective reporting of what a candidate has said can be misleading because you are not going to provide a complete, in context report of everything the candidate said. You would not be satisfied with a report that did not include your governor's union busting positions, but you might leave out his position on puppy farms.
In a recent national election in VA, a candidate lost a good chunk of his support as a result of making the following statement regarding an Indian American student filming his event:
quote:
This fellow here over here with the yellow shirt, Macaca, or whatever his name is. He's with my opponent... Lets give a welcome to Macaca, here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia.
Do you think that statement or any of its implications would have or should have appeared on your quiz?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Perdition, posted 01-11-2012 12:57 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Perdition, posted 01-11-2012 4:23 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 236 (647870)
01-11-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Perdition
01-11-2012 4:23 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
In my scenario, the "Macaca" comment would still have been reported in the media as it was. When voters appeared at their voting places, they would have already seen (or not) this issue and vote accordingly. The quiz would only allow them to see their candidate's positions on the issues that (statistically) they care about most.
I find this argument completely baffling. Isn't every other position on the quiz going to be based on the candidates' public statements? I might still vote for a candidate who made that remark if it were properly addressed by the candidate or if it were clearly out of character for the candidate. So how much stuff goes on the quiz?
If I recall correctly, the "Macaca" comment ultimately led to the candidate dropping form the race. Or, at the very least, he was not the one on the final ballot, so the whole issue is moot as far as my scenario is concerned.
I don't believe you've raised a legitimate objection. What if the comment had instead been made during the race for the general election? If you need a different hypothetical, imagine a different comment made during the campaign for general election, and later disavowed by the candidate. Who gets to decide whether the comment and or the disavowal gets put on the quiz or not?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Perdition, posted 01-11-2012 4:23 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Perdition, posted 01-11-2012 4:58 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024