Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8936 total)
20 online now:
DrJones*, dwise1, RAZD (3 members, 17 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Post Volume: Total: 861,614 Year: 16,650/19,786 Month: 775/2,598 Week: 21/251 Day: 21/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 166 of 304 (647636)
01-10-2012 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 2:25 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
quote:

I don't believe there is any serious doubt that the Pharisees as a group did believe or profess to believe the scripture, but didn't believe the scripture was about Jesus. I'm at a loss to understand your position on this.

I don't see that my position is the one that's hard to understand.

1) Jesus is quoted as saying that the Pharisees disbelieved the scripture. You agree with that.

2) the Pharisees did believe the scripture. You agree with that.

3) Therefore, if Jesus was quoted accurately, he was wrong. You and GDR seem to disagree with that, yet it clearly follows from points that you agree with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 2:25 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 3:52 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 167 of 304 (647638)
01-10-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by PaulK
01-10-2012 2:58 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
PaulK writes:

Then you have agreed that Jesus was wrong, because he said that they disbelieved the passage.


No, I am saying Jesus said that they didn't believe the message of love and peace that was revealed through Moses. He is essentially saying that they have used the Torah as a vehicle to further their own agenda, and as a result have a very different view of what a messiah would be as opposed to what Jesus actually was. There were looking for someone more along the lines of a Judas Maccabeus which wasn't like Jesus at all.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 2:58 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 3:35 PM GDR has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 168 of 304 (647639)
01-10-2012 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by GDR
01-10-2012 3:26 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
Then you are saying that Jesus wasn't accurately quoted. Because in this particular case Jesus' claim is that they don't BELIEVE a passage that is about him. Please stop ignoring his fact.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 3:26 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 4:16 PM PaulK has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 304 (647642)
01-10-2012 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by PaulK
01-10-2012 3:07 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
Paulk writes:

3) Therefore, if Jesus was quoted accurately, he was wrong. You and GDR seem to disagree with that, yet it clearly follows from points that you agree with.

There are other possibilities. What I am saying is that the Pharisees believed in their own interpretation of the scripture but that their interpretation was wrong. My view is that Jesus words are completely understandable as a criticism of the Pharisees self-serving interpretation.

In other words, Jesus is saying that he has performed enough miracles and satisfied enough prophetic scripture that the Pharisees ought to have seen what others apparently did see at the time.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 3:07 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 4:14 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 170 of 304 (647646)
01-10-2012 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by NoNukes
01-10-2012 3:52 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
quote:

There are other possibilities.

Then please provide some. So far I haven't seen one valid objection.

quote:

What I am saying is that the Pharisees believed in their own interpretation of the scripture but that their interpretation was wrong.

So far that is not a valid option, since nobody has provided a scripture that Jesus could have meant where interpretation is an issue.

quote:

My view is that Jesus words are completely understandable as a criticism of the Pharisees self-serving interpretation.

Not for the one scripture that has been suggested. And in fact nobody seems able to find another possibility.

quote:

In other words, Jesus is saying that he has performed enough miracles and satisfied enough prophetic scripture that the Pharisees ought to have seen what others apparently did see at the time.

The problem there is that the alleged prophecies aren't attributed to Moses, some very important ones haven't been fulfilled even now, others aren't easy to identify even if they were true of Jesus (and probably aren't) and even if you are being very generous on the miracle stories, equality with Moses is still a very tall order


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2012 3:52 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 171 of 304 (647647)
01-10-2012 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by PaulK
01-10-2012 3:35 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
PaulK writes:

Then you are saying that Jesus wasn't accurately quoted. Because in this particular case Jesus' claim is that they don't BELIEVE a passage that is about him. Please stop ignoring his fact.

I’m not ignoring the fact. I don’t believe that He wasn’t accurately quoted. I’m saying that Jesus is saying they didn’t believe Moses’ message that God is about love and peace, and have instead created their own view of God that fits where there human agenda. In light of that they don’t believe that the passage in question or anything else in the Torah for that matter refers to Jesus.

Here is vs 44:

quote:
44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God ?

Here is Jesus saying that their beliefs that they hold are wrong in that they are about pleasing other men and are not pleasing to God. It is for this reason that although they believe that there will be a messiah they don’t believe that Jesus is the one.

I agree that my position has changed from when I started for which I give you full credit.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 3:35 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 4:37 PM GDR has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 172 of 304 (647657)
01-10-2012 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by GDR
01-10-2012 4:16 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
quote:

I’m not ignoring the fact. I don’t believe that He wasn’t accurately quoted. I’m saying that Jesus is saying they didn’t believe Moses’ message that God is about love and peace, and have instead created their own view of God that fits where there human agenda. In light of that they don’t believe that the passage in question or anything else in the Torah for that matter refers to Jesus.

So you believe that Jesus said that the scripture in question was about him but you insist that he didn't mean it. How exactly does that help?

quote:

Here is vs 44:

Nice try at changing the subject. But you should have learnt by now that I'm not that easily tricked. It doesn't matter what other things Jesus said. That's not the issue we're discussing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 4:16 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 4:52 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 173 of 304 (647659)
01-10-2012 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by foreveryoung
01-05-2012 6:13 PM


foreveryoung writes:

Like the rest of the bible, Jesus doesn't tell us everything that is going to happen. He did however say some ominous things. He said that not one stone would be left upon the other of the temple. Most of the temple is destroyed but the wailing wall remains. Knocking that completely down tells me that something awful would be required. Another thing he said was that woe to nursing moms in those days if it were on a sabbath, speaking about a day of reckoning.
Here is the passage in question: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

That tells me there will be much carnage on a particular day. It wasn't necessary in the short span of the book of matthew to include every little detail. I would assume the destruction of nations bent on israels destruction would be part of the picture Jesus is warning us about.

Let's just look at the bit ahead of what you have quoted from Matthew 24.

quote:
16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

If you are suggesting that this is about the end of the world why on earth would Jesus be telling them to flee to the mountains ASAP? Why would it be a problem if it is in winter?

This is Jesus saying, in typical Jewish apocalyptic style, that because of following the way of revolution rather than the way of peace there will be massive destruction at the hands of the Romans which we all know happened within many of the lives of that generation.

Incidentally, for you who see the Bible as being given to the writers word for word by God you might consider these words from Jesus in John 5, in speaking to those that reject His message.

quote:
39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

It is not the Scriptures that have authority or power but it is Jesus. The Christian life is not about Bible study or head knowledge it is about having hearts that love unselfishly and generously. As I said, it is Christianity, not Bibleianity. (For the rest of you I am NOT saying that only Christians can have hearts that love unselfishly and generously, but that is something that is a message for all of mankind in all times.)


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 6:13 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 174 of 304 (647667)
01-10-2012 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by PaulK
01-10-2012 4:37 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
PaulK writes:

Nice try at changing the subject. But you should have learnt by now that I'm not that easily tricked. It doesn't matter what other things Jesus said. That's not the issue we're discussing.

It was not changing the subject. I was showing where it was that Jesus was claiming that they did not believe what Moses was saying but believed what was pleasing to themselves.

PaulK writes:

So you believe that Jesus said that the scripture in question was about him but you insist that he didn't mean it. How exactly does that help?

Of course He meant it. He is merely saying that because they did not believe the message of Moses in the context of the entire Torah, they did not believe that anything, including this passage, was about Him.

I'm afraid I don't know how to be more clear.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 4:37 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 5:01 PM GDR has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 175 of 304 (647674)
01-10-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by GDR
01-10-2012 4:52 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
quote:

It was not changing the subject. I was showing where it was that Jesus was claiming that they did not believe what Moses was saying but believed what was pleasing to themselves.

We're not arguing about that verse or anything else that Jesus might have said. So I'd class that as changing the subject.

quote:

Of course He meant it. He is merely saying that because they did not believe the message of Moses in the context of the entire Torah, they did not believe that anything, including this passage, was about Him.

That's not what he was quoted as saying. So either he was misquoted, didn't mean what he said or you are directly contradicting the verses you supposedly believe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 4:52 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 5:18 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 176 of 304 (647684)
01-10-2012 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by PaulK
01-10-2012 5:01 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
PaulK writes:

That's not what he was quoted as saying. So either he was misquoted, didn't mean what he said or you are directly contradicting the verses you supposedly believe.

No, not at all, but I am saying that the verse in question has to be read in the context of the entire passage including vs 44.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 5:01 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 6:03 PM GDR has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 177 of 304 (647688)
01-10-2012 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by GDR
01-10-2012 5:18 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
quote:

No, not at all, but I am saying that the verse in question has to be read in the context of the entire passage including vs 44.

It looks more like you saying "Look over here!" in an attempt to distract the conversation from the verses in question.

It seems pretty obvious to me that we can't plausibly say that the Pharisees didn't believe that at some time (maybe even in the past) that there would be a prophet equal to Moses. But so far that's the only thing suggested.

So come on, what was it that Moses supposedly wrote about Jesus that the Pharisees did not believe. Chapter and verse please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 5:18 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 8:30 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 178 of 304 (647703)
01-10-2012 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
01-10-2012 6:03 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
PaulK writes:

It looks more like you saying "Look over here!" in an attempt to distract the conversation from the verses in question.

It looks to me like you’re doing the fundamentalist thing of cherry picking verses and ignoring the context to make a point.

PaulK writes:

It seems pretty obvious to me that we can't plausibly say that the Pharisees didn't believe that at some time (maybe even in the past) that there would be a prophet equal to Moses. But so far that's the only thing suggested.

I’m not saying they didn’t believe that in fact I’m sure they did. They were looking for a messiah but they didn’t recognize him when he came because they expected the messiah to be consist with their beliefs.

PaulK writes:

So come on, what was it that Moses supposedly wrote about Jesus that the Pharisees did not believe. Chapter and verse please.

Now there’s a rabbit hole I’m not going down. The point is that Jesus obviously believed that they weren’t believing what Moses was saying in the Torah, and it isn’t just that they didn’t believe what they said about Him. Jesus is contending that they didn’t believe what Moses said about the nature of God in general which meant that they wouldn’t recognize Jesus as messiah, as He was professing a very different message than what they were preaching.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2012 6:03 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2012 2:00 AM GDR has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 179 of 304 (647730)
01-11-2012 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by GDR
01-10-2012 8:30 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
quote:

It looks to me like you’re doing the fundamentalist thing of cherry picking verses and ignoring the context to make a point.

Obviously that's not true because I'm not making a general point - only discussing a few verses - and I'm not ignoring the context. It just doesn't change the meaning of the verses to what you want them to say.

quote:

I’m not saying they didn’t believe that in fact I’m sure they did.

Then Jesus was wrong to say that they didn't - if he said it. It really is that simple. So you're left with either arguing that he didn't mean those verses (your only candidate) arguing that Jesus didn't say it (after affirming that he did) or admitting that Jesus was wrong.

quote:

They were looking for a messiah but they didn’t recognize him when he came because they expected the messiah to be consist with their beliefs.

I'm really not bothering to argue about this because it is beside the point.

quote:

Now there’s a rabbit hole I’m not going down

But it ISN'T a rabbit hole. It IS the central point of the discussion.

quote:

The point is that Jesus obviously believed that they weren’t believing what Moses was saying in the Torah, and it isn’t just that they didn’t believe what they said about Him.

But that DOES seem to be a rabbit hole. I'm not making a general discussion of whether the Pharisees were entirely right about the Torah or whether they disagreed with Jesus about it. I am simply defending my point that one particular claim attributed to Jesus which doesn't seem to be true.

The specific claim that Jesus is alleged to have made is that the Pharisees did not agree with what Moses wrote ABOUT HIM. So all you need to do is find verses that are plausibly about Jesus that the Pharisees did not believe. You've already admitted that they did believe the only candidate you've put forward.

The messiah issue really is something of a rabbit hole because the major messianic prophecies aren't even in the Torah. Even the verses you mention only talk about a prophet equal to Moses, without specifying what that prophet is going to do or giving any way to recognise him. That's why it is so difficult to say that the Pharisees didn't believe it - it just says far too little.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by GDR, posted 01-10-2012 8:30 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 01-12-2012 2:25 AM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 180 of 304 (647931)
01-12-2012 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by PaulK
01-11-2012 2:00 AM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
PaulK writes:

The messiah issue really is something of a rabbit hole because the major messianic prophecies aren't even in the Torah. Even the verses you mention only talk about a prophet equal to Moses, without specifying what that prophet is going to do or giving any way to recognise him. That's why it is so difficult to say that the Pharisees didn't believe it - it just says far too little.

I agree there is very little about the Messiah in the Torah. There was much more in Isaiah, Daniel, the Psalms, Jeremiah etc.

Jesus says that all the law and the prophets hang on the commands to love God and neighbour. That was not what the Pharisees preached or lived so Jesus is saying that they didn't believe Moses, but no doubt the Pharisees would have disagreed with that. As Jesus was preaching a message of love and peace they were unable to recognize the messiah when He actually did arrive.

I think that's pretty straight forward but we're just going around in circles.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2012 2:00 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2012 2:48 AM GDR has responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019