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Author Topic:   Evidence to expect given a designer
Taq
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Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 210 of 373 (646453)
01-04-2012 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by foreveryoung
01-04-2012 3:11 PM


Re: Where's the beef?
Could it be because the dna sequence that is responsible for producing cytB in both mice and yeast are partially transcribed to produce miRNA that have other regulatory functions specific to each organism?
Actually, I was thinking of cytochrome C:
quote:
With this in mind, consider again the molecular sequences of cytochrome c. Cytochrome c is absolutely essential for life - organisms that lack it cannot live. It has been shown that the human cytochrome c protein works in yeast (a unicellular organism) that has had its own native cytochrome c gene deleted, even though yeast cytochrome c differs from human cytochrome c over 40% of the protein (Tanaka et. al 1988a; Tanaka et al. 1988b; Wallace and Tanaka 1994). In fact, the cytochrome c genes from tuna (fish), pigeon (bird), horse (mammal), Drosophila fly (insect), and rat (mammal) all function in yeast that lack their own native yeast cytochrome c (Clements et al. 1989; Hickey et al. 1991; Koshy et al. 1992; Scarpulla and Nye 1986).
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 4
So why rewrite cytochrome C for yeast when any of these other ones will work fine? Not only that, but why rewrite cytochrome C sequences so that they produce the same nested hierarchy that is formed when comparing morphology? How does that make sense from a design perspective? Why would you rewrite cytochrome C to make it look like evolution occurred?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by foreveryoung, posted 01-04-2012 3:11 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Tangle, posted 01-04-2012 5:28 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 212 by foreveryoung, posted 01-04-2012 6:38 PM Taq has replied
 Message 213 by foreveryoung, posted 01-04-2012 6:44 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 222 of 373 (646574)
01-05-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by foreveryoung
01-04-2012 6:38 PM


Re: Where's the beef?
Cytochrome C is used by almost all organisms. I would say that several other proteins/enzymes are almost universal.
Is it though? I guess it depends on how you look at it. We humans use the same name for these enzymes in various species because they have the same function and evolutionary ancestry. Without homology based on evolutionary history, why should we use the same name for each of these enzymes? Their sequence differs greatly between distantly related . . . err, I mean different organisms.
"It has been shown that the human cytochrome c protein works in yeast (a unicellular organism) that has had its own native cytochrome c gene deleted, even though yeast cytochrome c differs from human cytochrome c over 40% of the protein (Tanaka et. al 1988a; Tanaka et al. 1988b; Wallace and Tanaka 1994)."
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 4
Nearly every other amino acid is different between these two proteins. So why so much difference between these proteins when either sequence works just fine? They replaced yeast cytochrome c with human cytochrome c. The result? Perfectly healthy and functional yeast. So why would a designer change the sequence by 40% when no changes were needed? Even more, why change them to produce a nested hierarchy that mimics millions of years of evolution?
It would be much more effective , for example, if you designed some of these enzymes/proteins to function the same under numerous different amino acid sequences.
No it wouldn't. It would be much more effecient to use the same amino acid sequence in multiple species for the same function. It is even more effecient not to have to worry about changing the sequence to match an evolutionary history that never occurred.
That same gene could be transcribed with other genes, and then spliced thousands of different ways to produce thousands of different miRNAs.
But is it? It would seem to me that you need to support this argument. Why is it that yeast function just fine with a human copy of the cytochrome c gene? If the human cytochrome c sequence works just fine in yeast, then why use a different sequence that differs by 40%? Why keep using a different sequence for the same function when one sequence would have worked just fine?
The tuna, pidgeon, horse, drosophila fly, rat and yeast all have different biochemical pathways from each other, and yet all of these pathways use cytochrome C at some time or another.
All of them use the same oxidative cycle in their mitochondria. The cytochrome proteins serve the same exact function in each, and yet the sequence differs by 40% across those species. Nothing you have offered so far explains this from a design perspective. I will continue with my contention that these observations are contrary to what we would expect from a design process. It is equivalent to changing the car manuals for identical cars by 40% just because.
If every animal listed above had a cytochrome C protein that would only function with a specific amino acid sequence, the corresponding gene would likely only produce cytochrome C, and be less likely to be used for other regulatory functions.
Again, they replaced yeast cytochrome c with human cytochrome c. The yeast chugged along happily just like they did with their own gene even though the genes differed by 40%. You need to include this observation in your explanations.
To summarize: cytochrome C from one organism fits in to the cellular machinery of many other organisms in order to cut down on DNA storage space. One to one correspondence of gene to protein product is wasteful and inefficient.
This still does not explain the observations as it relates to functional redundancy and protein sequence divergence.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 223 of 373 (646577)
01-05-2012 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by foreveryoung
01-04-2012 7:30 PM


Re: Where's the beef?
If every protein/enzyme was only produced by a single gene, you would have over 2 million genes. There are only about 20,000 human genes instead of 2 million. That is efficiency. That is only half the story. When these 2 million proteins have their corresponding genes and/or gene fragments transcribed, and how those RNA strands are spliced and refitted, and when those RNA strands are translated into proteins makes a huge difference in cell chemistry and possibly what kind of organism is created.
So why is it that we can replace yeast cytochrome c with human cytochrome c and the yeast are unaffected, even though the sequence differs by 40%? Why not use the same sequence for both organisms?
What determines when a gene gets transcribed and when it is turned off is partly determined by micro RNAs.
This would only apply to the promoter region of the cytochrome c gene, not the actual protein sequence.
In short, a one to one gene to gene product correspondence would require an enormous amount of DNA space. Doing more transcription work in less space is efficient. Not doing so is inefficient.
We already know that yeast can use the human cytochrome c sequence. So why create more sequences than you need to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by foreveryoung, posted 01-04-2012 7:30 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 224 of 373 (646580)
01-05-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by foreveryoung
01-04-2012 6:44 PM


Re: Where's the beef?
Nested hierarchies are manmade inventions.
No, it is a pattern of homology created by evolutionary mechanisms in species that do not participate in horizontal genetic transfer.
Cytochrome C was not designed to make it look like evolution occurred.
Then why does it mimic the pattern of homology that we observe evolution producing?
Men see evolution when there is none.
So we are ignoring the species with feathers and teats? Perhaps you could name this species for us?
You are going to have to show me how cytC produces nested hierarchies and how morphologies produce nested hierarchies before I can decide if they do indeed look the same, and if so, what reason would be behind it.
A comparison of human, timber wolf, and tasmanian wolf cytochrome c will return a result where the human and timber wolf cytC share the most similarities while both are equidistant from the tasmanian wolf. This is exactly what we would expect to see if evolution were true. How does design predict this finding?

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 Message 213 by foreveryoung, posted 01-04-2012 6:44 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 313 of 373 (647403)
01-09-2012 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Just being real
01-08-2012 3:35 AM


You are just busting at the seems to talk about bacteria aren't you? Its incredible to me how someone can take a single celled organism which bares almost no resemblance to the incredible diversity of multi-celled organisms found on Earth and use it as their sole biological argument for universal common decent. An interesting thought to chew on for a few moments, is to consider what a designer might have created bacteria for to begin with.
You are just busting at the seams to make this example of evolution increasing information just go away. The facts of the matter is that this new and novel enzyme was the product of random mutation. If this is not an example of an increase in information then evolution does not require an increase in information.
Secondly, single celled organisms are more diverse than multi-cellular organisms. The majority of the biomass on Earth is made up of single celled organisms. You can whinge and wail all you want, this isn't going away. This is an example of mutations producing new information in the genome.
For those reading this who aren't familiar with the whole "nylon eating bacteria" argument, allow me a second to bring you up to speed. Basically the idea is that since nylon is a man made product that didn't exist until 1935, then these bacteria developing the ability to digest the manufacturer waste product (according to the argument) must have "evolved" to be able to do so. The Nylonase flag was raised by atheists and planted firmly into the hill of intelligent design, and touted as a great victory!
We have the genome without the mutation and the genome with the mutation. This is a case of a mutation producing a new and novel enzyme.
I just want to first point out that all the changes occurred in the plasmids.
You do realize that plasmids are made up of DNA, right?
Since none of these new enzymes have been found to catalyze with any naturally occurring amide compounds, it is assumed that the enzymes are completely new and not just modified existing enzymes. The argument is usually made that this new enzyme (EII) was the result of a frame shift mutation, while others insist that it is actually the result of a loss of specification. And that is actually what the whole nylonase debate boils down to (frame shift mutation or loss of specification). Most ID proponents suggest that because five transposable elements exist on plasmid pOAD2 that it could be interpreted as evidence of it being "designed" to be adaptive.
Thus, we find just how dishonest ID really is. They ask us for examples of mutations producing new enzymes, since such examples should exist if evolution is true. We show them the mutations. Their reply? It doesn't count because it was designed to do that. Pathetic.
Opponents to ID argue that because the transposons jump around at random without regard to the cell’s need, therefore the mechanism is purely random mutation and natural selection. But considered the fact that transposons cleave to the DNA strand by use of an enzyme called transposase, which recognize specific sequences of nucleotides and these transposons insert into the DNA molecule. This in turn creates direct repeats on each side of the transposons, known as insertion sequences. When they are activated, transposase enzymes coded within, cause genetic recombination. External forces such as exposure to poison, starvation or high temperature are known to activate transposases.
That tells us that it is in fact with regard to the cells need!
This is false. The insertions that are produced are neutral, beneficial, and detrimental. They are random with respect to fitness. This is true in multi-cellular organisms as well.
Finally my case in point is this. For those of you who aren't familiar with plasmids, they are a small circular unit of DNA that replicate within a cell completely independent of the chromosomal DNA and are mostly only found in bacteria. But wait a second, the whole argument using nylonase is that they are an example showing us how DNA could have formed by natural processes.
Baloney. It is an example of a mutation in DNA producing a new and novel enzyme, otherwise known as an increase in information.
So again Taq, show me an example in the chromosomal DNA of a multi-celled organism and we can talk.
Do a comparison of the chimp and human genome. The similarities are inherited from the common ancestor. The differences are lineage specific mutations that resulted in the species we see today. It's pretty simple, really.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Just being real, posted 01-08-2012 3:35 AM Just being real has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 319 of 373 (647829)
01-11-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Just being real
01-11-2012 12:40 PM


Re: Evidence for a designer
Here is an interesting comment for you. Suppose "time" is not a "something" but merely a human measurement to measure change.
The one observation that fights this interpretation is entropy. Entropy is always increasing as a whole. We can see this in distant galaxies. This increase in entropy happened before Earth was even a planet and well before the first modern humans stared at the stars. The march from low entropy to high entropy is real and independent of human observation.
Of course, this really isn't getting us any closer to the question posed in the opening post. I, for one, would like to see any cdesign proponentist explain why their model would ever predict a nested hierarchy for genetics and morphology. This is my biggest sticking point with ID.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Just being real, posted 01-11-2012 12:40 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2012 3:05 PM Taq has replied
 Message 330 by Just being real, posted 01-14-2012 6:45 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 324 of 373 (647860)
01-11-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by NoNukes
01-11-2012 3:05 PM


Re: Evidence for a designer
Yes, your observation was completely correct, but I think the problem with ID is far more fundamental than your statement hints.
You are completely correct, but I would rather approach ID with the hope that something fruitful can come from it, even if it is rotten to the core. I have had some very intriguing conversations with Mike the Wiz about ID. None of us came away with our minds changed about anything, but at least we were able to actually discuss biology which interests me more than a diatribe on the political motivations of ID supporters.
I realize that a lot of us have been around this debate for quite some time. We have even developed our own shorthand (e.g. PRATT's). Yes, we are jaded to some degree. We have seen dishonest creationist after dishonest creationist. However, we still need to remember that there are lurkers who are new to this debate. The more we can show the absence of anything approaching science within the ID ranks as it relates to biology the better we make our point. Pointing to one of the fundamental observations of biology (the nested hierarchy) is a great way of doing this, IMHO. ID just can not explain biology. Ever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2012 3:05 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2012 5:08 PM Taq has not replied

  
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