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Author Topic:   Modern Civics
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 236 (647988)
01-12-2012 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Perdition
01-12-2012 12:54 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
So the guy lied and tricked his way into office.
Isn't that why your state has the recall procedure?
It's seems like your democracy is working just the way it was designed to work. If the people really hate the guy so much, he'll get ousted.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 12:54 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:01 PM Jon has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 137 of 236 (647989)
01-12-2012 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Perdition
01-12-2012 12:58 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
That's the way it currently is. Do you honestly think this is the best way to run things?
Well you cant inform people that are unwilling to be informed. When we have a referendum the whole wording of the law being put on a referendum is mailed to every house and 90% of the time it wanders directly into the bin cause the people know what they are going to do because their candidate said they should vote in that way.
I actually skim the stuff they send to find the actual reason for the law, last time they wanted to change some stuff in the state run national television law. Both sides argued pointless stuff in the law, the actual reason was found in a little sentence that stated that employees of the state run radio and television company will not be regarded as public employees. Basicly that gave the right to give whatever high wage they wanted to the CEO or any other family they had working there. The rest of it was basically a way to get more funds in to the company to pay for these new outrageous wages. The bill was slameed down though 10% of the voters voted with 70% of them saying no because no one watches the channels they provide and so does not care what happens to them. 7% of voters read the law the other 3% belonged to the party in power lol the rest dint care to read the thing.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 12:58 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:04 PM frako has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 236 (647993)
01-12-2012 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Jon
01-12-2012 12:04 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
But in a free democracy, people have the right to vote for things they don't understand; even to cast random blind-chance votes in a language they cannot read or perhaps even speak.
And that's stupid and undesireable. Nobody wants a free democracy. And even if they did, there'd still be limits on who is allowed to vote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 12:04 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 148 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 3:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 167 by caffeine, posted 01-13-2012 4:13 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 139 of 236 (647997)
01-12-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Jon
01-12-2012 1:04 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
I and others have been saying this for a while now.
Great, and this is one way we can do that, by making people more informed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 1:04 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 3:01 PM Perdition has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 236 (647998)
01-12-2012 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by foreveryoung
01-11-2012 6:27 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
But a republic is much better than a "free democracy".
See: Message 44
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by foreveryoung, posted 01-11-2012 6:27 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 236 (647999)
01-12-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Perdition
01-12-2012 2:58 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Great, and this is one way we can do that, by making people more informed.
LOL. Except that that is not what you have proposed.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 2:58 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:06 PM Jon has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 142 of 236 (648000)
01-12-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Jon
01-12-2012 1:08 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
So the guy lied and tricked his way into office.
No. The whole point is that he didn't lie, people just had no way to know what he said he'd do. Had they known, they may have voted differently.
Isn't that why your state has the recall procedure?
The recall procedure exists to remove an office holder from office for whatever reason we want. If someone were willing to petition and could get enough signatures to oust someone because they wore white after Labor Day, they could do that.
It's seems like your democracy is working just the way it was designed to work. If the people really hate the guy so much, he'll get ousted.
But after spending thousands of dollars of taxpayer money in order to fund an election. And after the cows have already left the barn, so to speak. The thing people are upset about, the collective bargaining, labor busting, has already passed, and it will take a long time for it to ever be fixed. Had the people who are upset about this turn of events known that he wanted to do so, as he said he did, they may have voted differently and we wouldn't have to be going through this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 1:08 PM Jon has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 143 of 236 (648001)
01-12-2012 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by frako
01-12-2012 1:12 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Well you cant inform people that are unwilling to be informed.
Very true. We can never get rid of stupid voters. But we can make the highest possible number of informed voters that we can.
When we have a referendum the whole wording of the law being put on a referendum is mailed to every house and 90% of the time it wanders directly into the bin cause the people know what they are going to do because their candidate said they should vote in that way.
They don't do that around here. I think it would be a good first step, cuz it would at least help people like you, who are willing to read through it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by frako, posted 01-12-2012 1:12 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by frako, posted 01-12-2012 5:56 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 144 of 236 (648003)
01-12-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by New Cat's Eye
01-12-2012 2:20 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
And that's stupid and undesireable. Nobody wants a free democracy.
Not even ther founding fathers wanted one. That's why the dumb Electoral College exists. It's to protect the process from the stupid, uninformed masses...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-12-2012 2:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-12-2012 3:14 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 145 of 236 (648004)
01-12-2012 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jon
01-12-2012 3:01 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
LOL. Except that that is not what you have proposed.
That is exactly what I have proposed. If you have a way to make that goal more likely, I'd love to hear it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 3:01 PM Jon has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 146 of 236 (648006)
01-12-2012 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Perdition
01-12-2012 3:05 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
So what the fuck is Jon even talking about!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:05 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 147 of 236 (648008)
01-12-2012 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by New Cat's Eye
01-12-2012 3:14 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
So what the fuck is Jon even talking about!?
I think he's hung up on the possibility of my quiz idea being used to bar people from voting, and doesn't like any system that reduces that chance of someone being able to vote.
I understand the criticism, and I have tried to make it as improbable as I can...and if anyone has a way to make it better, I would love to hear it. But he needs to realize that the goals of the writers of the constitution were not to have everyone vote. They only wanted those people they considered would be informed and would make intelligent, if opposing, choices.
The history of this country has expanded that group to now include anyone over 18. With the exception of the Electoral College still existing. I'm certainly not advocating the removal of anyone from voting rolls, but making the voters more informed, perhaps even despite their wishes contrariwise, is, to me, a good goal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-12-2012 3:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-12-2012 3:36 PM Perdition has not replied
 Message 150 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 3:39 PM Perdition has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 236 (648010)
01-12-2012 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by New Cat's Eye
01-12-2012 2:20 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Nobody wants a free democracy.
I do.
And that's stupid and undesireable.
Why?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-12-2012 2:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-12-2012 3:43 PM Jon has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 236 (648011)
01-12-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Perdition
01-12-2012 3:25 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
I think he's hung up on the possibility of my quiz idea being used to bar people from voting, and doesn't like any system that reduces that chance of someone being able to vote.
But why is he talking about a free democracy?
I guess this is just another case of Jon being Jon. You're probably better off ignoring his nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:25 PM Perdition has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-12-2012 6:44 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 236 (648012)
01-12-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Perdition
01-12-2012 3:25 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
But he needs to realize that the goals of the writers of the constitution were not to have everyone vote. They only wanted those people they considered would be informed and would make intelligent, if opposing, choices.
The 'goals of the writers of the constitution' are 100% irrelevant.
but making the voters more informed, perhaps even despite their wishes contrariwise, is, to me, a good goal.
I agree. And that's what this is for.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:25 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:46 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 153 by Perdition, posted 01-12-2012 3:51 PM Jon has not replied

  
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