Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,386 Year: 3,643/9,624 Month: 514/974 Week: 127/276 Day: 1/23 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Modern Civics
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 153 of 236 (648016)
01-12-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Jon
01-12-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
The 'goals of the writers of the constitution' are 100% irrelevant
While I agree that we can, and should, adapt our country as times change. The fact remains that we are left with the foundation they laid down. And it just indicates that this "free democracy" you speak of has never existed, and like true Communism may never be feasible in the real world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 3:39 PM Jon has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 157 of 236 (648023)
01-12-2012 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by NoNukes
01-12-2012 4:30 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
In other words, well before the general election. I see some pretty significant problems with that, but perhaps we could fix it by making it a late requirement.
Maybe it even gets sent out a week before the ballots are printed, and must be returned by the day before.
The plan that might evolve over time, and candidates don't necessarily have the answer to everything that might come up during the election.
True, but the major issues of the day are usually pretty stable over the election, or even multiple elections. If the candidate doesn't have anything to say on those issues, he may indicate that on the quesitonaire, but it would seem a bit problematic.
Sounds awful hollow to me. It's not like you can impeach the dude for failing to keep his promises.
No, but he can be recalled. But I'm not even an advocate of that. It would just be something that could be hauled out during the next election.
"According to your questionaire, you said your plan was to lower taxes for those making under $200,000/year. Yet you voted against that bill, why?"
I'm assuming the media or the opposing candidate would use it to great advantage and make the incumbent explain their inconsistencies.
I take the responsibility to inform myself.
And if everyone did, this would be anon-issue.
Do you know what a sample ballot is? In case you don't, a sample ballot is a mock ballot filled out by a partisan showing you how to vote for his favored candidates. They are handed out as close to the polling place door as the law allows. I don't need that crap.
I agree that this is crap. I assumed it was a copy of the ballot, but an unofficial one, so that you could preview what was on the ballot. I would support those.
I don't advocate trying to influence your vote in a partisan manner. I don't care how someone votes, I just want them to be aware of what they're voting for or against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2012 4:30 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 5:27 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 159 of 236 (648027)
01-12-2012 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Jon
01-12-2012 5:27 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
Pretty stable for you. Your major issues aren't everyone else's major issues.
By major issues, I mean exactly what I've been saying: The top 3-5 issues as revealed in polls. True, there may be some people out there for whom those issues are at the bottom, but we couldn't contain every issue anyone anywhere has, so statistically, at least one of the top 5 are probably in your top 5.
And if it isn't, you're not really any worse off than you are now, except you've had to take the extra 10 minutes or so and elarn about some of the issues you may not have considered much (or not learned anything and just copied the answers to get to the vote.)
Jos, for example, doesn't care about the new school that Joe Dickhead wants built, or the raised taxes he plans for the super wealthy, or the government-run health insurance program he'd like to start. He just cares about that damn landfill that Mr. Dickhead has proposed to put behind Jos's house, and he is willing to vote in any other baby-killing, war-starting, pension-ending S.O.B. who doesn't support the landfill behind his house.
And Jose still has that right. But he's also now a bit more informed (or not) about some of the other issues likely to come up during this session.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 5:27 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 6:28 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 161 of 236 (648031)
01-12-2012 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by frako
01-12-2012 5:56 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Well it does increase the cost of the referendum quite a bit, and even though its pointless to send to most, i still wouldn't do away with it. It at least gives me the hope people know what they are voting on.
Perhaps, in the technological age we live in, they could have a list where people can elect to receive the resolution via e-mail rather than snail mail. People would still receive it and do as they wish, but it should reduce the costs inherent with sending out mail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by frako, posted 01-12-2012 5:56 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by frako, posted 01-12-2012 6:53 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 163 of 236 (648036)
01-12-2012 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Jon
01-12-2012 6:28 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
The alternative to this limitation is to get rid of your stupid test altogether.
Why is that option so displeasing to you?
Because it leaves everything as is...and as is is broken. Something needs to change. This is my proposal...what's yours?
How is your proposed test anything other than political propaganda?
If a politician answering questions about his stances on the issues that matter the most to most people is propaganda, then I guess it is. But then everything even remotely connected to politics would be propaganda, making it a very watered-down word and no longer necessarily a bad thing.
The difference I see is that it doesn't try and tell you what to think, it merely gives you the data at hand and lets you make your own decisions about it.
You seem very passionate about how terrible this idea is. I'm not sure why it's gotten your dander up so much. It might make voting take a little longer, but it would do nothing to stop people from voting based on stupid reasons, based on personal reasons, or based on any reason whatsoever, it merely gives each voter more information which he or she can use to help decide which way to vote. If a person wants to ignore it, then they can.
I think my proposal is less of an impediment to voting than the new law in WI that requires a state-issued ID card. If you can't make it down to the DMV, I guess you're not good enough to vote. But if you don't know squat about anything on the ballot, your vote is welcomed with open arms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 6:28 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 7:36 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 178 of 236 (648152)
01-13-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Jon
01-12-2012 7:36 PM


Re: Jos the Well-Informed Voter
I already offered it.
Your solution for making sure voters are aware of what the resolution they're voting on this year means, is to send all of them back to elementary school? Strange idea.
Seriously, if you think you local voters aren't informed enough, then get off your lazy fucking ass and inform them.
I believe that's what I'm trying to do.
Do you think it would be appropriate for me to post a sign at the polls advertising my political philosophy?
Are you on the ballot? If so, sure, as long as your opponent has the same ability. If you're not, no, because it matters not a whit.
And I think that such a requirement is ridiculous.
Well, good, we agree on something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Jon, posted 01-12-2012 7:36 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 2:47 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 184 of 236 (648167)
01-13-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Jon
01-13-2012 2:47 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Stop being ridiculous. You know that is not the point I am making.
But the point you are making has no bearing on what I'm proposing. People can be as well taught as possible, and still not understand the wording on a ballot.
People can be as well taught as possible, and still not be able to hear a candidate's proposals to take care of the deficit, or engage in war, or whatever else is important to the populace that election cycle.
Fascist.
Wow, hyperbole? I'm more libertarian than fascist, but my Libertarian streak has a caveat. "People should be free to do as they please unless what they want to do hurts others" Voting blindly hurts people. I'd really rather someone who doesn't know what he/she is voting for or against just stay home, but I can't force them to.
No; you're trying to shove someone else's political ideologies down my throat as I attempt to exercise my constitutional right to vote, and you're using the resources and the power of the government to do so, because you are too godamned lazy to get off your fucking ass and use your own time and resources to send out the information yourself.
The only political ideologies being "shoved down your throat" are those of the people on the ballot. Voting, in essence, is shoving someone's political ideologies down someone else's throat, so don't give me that.
Even if I had the resources and time to send out a quesitonaire to every poltical candidate, there is no reason for them to fill it out. Even if all of them did, I could never send the answers to everyone. It's not laziness, it's practicality.
Fucking fascist.
Ooh, sexual hyperbole.
It doesn't matter. When I get to the polling place, I shouldn't be forced to listen to anyone's political ideology before being allowed to vote, including (and especially) the ideologies of those candidates that I have not come to the polls to vote for.
And it's very easy to ignore what the other people are doing. If you want to make uninformed decisions, go right ahead, but please excuse me if I think your choice should count less compared to somone who took the time to know the positions of the person they're voting for.
Damn fascist.
Damn ignorantist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 2:47 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 6:14 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 231 of 236 (648586)
01-16-2012 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Jon
01-13-2012 6:14 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
And now we've stepped beyond simply interfering with others' exercise of their constitutional rights and into the realm of deciding that people's votes should be weighted differently based on whether or not they agree with li'l Perdi'.
Fascist
I don't care if people agree with me or not. They can take the information, come to a different conclusion, and vote however they want. I don't want to control the vote, I want to make sure people are making informed decisions rather than randomly checking a box or pulling a lever.
Do you really want a government chosen by chance, rather than by the actual goals of the populace?
Who the FUCK cares what is important to the populace!? Voting isn't about the populace; it's about the individual, and only what is important to the individual should matter when the individual goes to exercise his/her/its rights.
Wrotten fascist.
Totally wrong! If it was about the individual, each individual would get the person they voted for representing them. But seeing as how we tally votes and choose a winner based on the preference of the populace, your argument seems to be totally wrong.
And here I thought you were being a fascist when all you were really doing was being a...
Sneaky fascist
You like to throw the word fascist around. In fact, it seems to be your biggest argument. Could you care to explain where I have advocated a single party-totalitarian regime? An outlawing of liberalism or conservatism? Perhaps anything that a fascist would want?
Wah wah... being a dutiful citizen is so much work... boo hoo.
Lazy fascist
Whereas you're just lazy. Can you come up with a better description of a non-fascist than fascist? Didn't think so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Jon, posted 01-13-2012 6:14 PM Jon has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 232 of 236 (648587)
01-16-2012 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Jon
01-16-2012 9:02 AM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
No. For example, I think there are far too many issues that are put to public vote. I think we'd benefit by reducing the number of things available to vote on.
You want to take away a person's right to vote?
Fascist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Jon, posted 01-16-2012 9:02 AM Jon has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 233 of 236 (648588)
01-16-2012 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Jon
01-16-2012 11:51 AM


Re: Right to Vote
And this is for the good much of the time. Occasionally, for example, the placement of a new traffic light will get put to the vote of the nearby residents, but by and large city officials and engineers decide to swap out the stop sign for a safer form of traffic control without consulting everyone who might drive down that street. And this, of course, is for the benefit of everyone because the safety of all those motorists should not be determined by a few people living next to the intersection who don't want a light outside their bedroom window.
Weird. Sounds like you're saying that informed people make better decisions for the good of all than those who vote soley based on what they think is best for them?
Fascist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Jon, posted 01-16-2012 11:51 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by frako, posted 01-16-2012 7:04 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3258 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 234 of 236 (648589)
01-16-2012 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Jon
01-16-2012 11:51 AM


Re: Right to Vote
And that's what I see with a right-to-vote test. Instead of helping people make the decisions you think would help your country the most, you are simply trying to ban people who might make decisions you dislike. Quite frankly, just because you don't like how uneducated people vote, that is no moral justification for restricting their right to do so.
Who is advocating this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Jon, posted 01-16-2012 11:51 AM Jon has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024