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Author Topic:   Evidence to expect given a designer
Just being real
Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 329 of 373 (648254)
01-14-2012 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Panda
01-11-2012 1:04 PM


Re: Evidence for a designer
So...nothing got older before humans existed?
You're confusing things wearing out with the measurement we use to gauge the rate of that change. Your question is a little like suggesting that I am claiming that before they invented feet or meters, that the moon touched the earth. Our bodies wearing out is no more a result of time than the distance to the moon is a result of the metric system.
We decided to call duration 'time' - we did not create it.
That is correct. Therefore change existed long before humans. But the entire construct of the increments we use (and call time) did not exist. We are so proud of our units of time that we have become completely intrenched in them to the point that we even consider them to be literal as if they are a place to be traveled to. We have forgotten that they are merely man made increments to measure the rate at which things change. We can not travel to the "place" of 1955 (as in the moving Back to the Future) because 1955 is not a place it is only a chalk mark on the wall to remember the way things were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Panda, posted 01-11-2012 1:04 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
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Just being real
Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 330 of 373 (648255)
01-14-2012 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Taq
01-11-2012 1:11 PM


The one observation that fights this interpretation is entropy. Entropy is always increasing as a whole. We can see this in distant galaxies. This increase in entropy happened before Earth was even a planet and well before the first modern humans stared at the stars. The march from low entropy to high entropy is real and independent of human observation.
Yes and I said nothing about the change of the state of things, I said that time is merely man's invention to measure the rate of this change. Again this idea is easily testable with the mind experiment of decreasing the rate of change in the entire universe to zero. At that point we would say that "time" had stopped, when in reality only change had stopped.

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 Message 319 by Taq, posted 01-11-2012 1:11 PM Taq has not replied

  
Just being real
Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 331 of 373 (648256)
01-14-2012 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Percy
01-11-2012 3:18 PM


The process used to design the antennae is the same one used by evolution to design species.
Oh it was? My bad... Now if you will just be so kind as to point out to me who it was that was there to observe the process of evolution and know they are the same... I would greatly appreciate it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Percy, posted 01-11-2012 3:18 PM Percy has replied

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Just being real
Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 332 of 373 (648257)
01-14-2012 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Straggler
01-12-2012 7:51 AM


Yes. That's my point. By the terms of your own argument there is a logical stalemate.
You want to reject "something from nothing" on the basis that it has never been observed. Indeed given that we are "something" it is by definition impossible for us to ever observe a state of nothingness.
But the exact same problem applies to "infinite in time". We have never observed this. And by virtue of the fact that we are finite in time it is impossible for us to ever observe this.
But what we have observed... is a state of "time" and a state of "something." We do not logically need to reject the state of infinite time on the same basis as the concept of something from nothing. That is because our invention of the measure of time is mathematically limitless in both directions. If we eliminate the notion of time being a tangible thing (please note my comments to panda in this regard) then all we are really left with is the question of where did the changeable matter, and the space within it to change... come from? If our observations say that something is required in order for something to be, then the only logical conclusion is that something has always been in order for something to now be.
It is not necessary to have observed something for an infinite amount of time in order to arrive at this logical conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Straggler, posted 01-12-2012 7:51 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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