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Author Topic:   Modern Civics
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2763 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 211 of 236 (648459)
01-15-2012 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Jon
01-15-2012 9:08 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Too many.

If people did not need to be controlled, there would be no police at all.

Do you have the right to live in an environment protected by people like the police and military?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Jon, posted 01-15-2012 9:08 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1793
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(3)
Message 212 of 236 (648461)
01-15-2012 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Butterflytyrant
01-15-2012 7:22 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
There are lots of good reasons that a good citizen would put the nation above him or herself. If someone does this of their own accord (like the examples I provided in the reply to Coyote) are they a fascist?
Am I a fascist because I have chosen not to have more than two children because I put the nation, my planet and my species above my own rights and desires?

I think what you are doing is identifying, correctly, that it is in your own interest to not have more than 2 children. I made the same decision. It is in our children's interest and in their children's interest. This is fundamentally different from someone else telling you that you may not have more children because it is against the law, as NoNukes points out.

This is the strength of democracy where the motivation remains with the individual. It will always be more robust and sustainable than any kind of top-down system even though you have to accept that some people will be 'wrong' on certain issues and have the right to be so. It is the very sloppiness of the system that makes it work.

Of course we need restrictions and police to enforce them but they have to be backed by popular consent or it wont work. The only hope lies in education but it has to be voluntary. You cant teach anybody anything that they dont want to learn. If we are not smart enough as a species then we are fucked anyway. Authoritarian efforts at survival will only make our demise that much more unpleasant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-15-2012 7:22 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-16-2012 12:07 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 236 (648462)
01-15-2012 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Butterflytyrant
01-15-2012 9:07 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
What if absolutely no one met your standards for intelligence to be allowed to participate in their government?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-15-2012 9:07 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-16-2012 12:22 AM Jon has responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2763 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 214 of 236 (648476)
01-16-2012 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by ProtoTypical
01-15-2012 10:30 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Hey Dogmafood,

I agree with everything you have said.

This is fundamentally different from someone else telling you that you may not have more children because it is against the law, as NoNukes points out.

With a lot of things we have to force people to do the right thing. That is why we have the EPA.

I will be the first to admit that I have no idea where to draw the line between forcing people to have no more than two children and forcing people to not dump radioactive waste into creeks and rivers.

It seems that we all accept certain levels of force in order to keep our society running.

We are not discussing a choice between force and no force, we are just discussing the level of pressure that we, as individuals are comfortable with.

Most of us are forced to look after our pets or we will be punished by the RSPCA (of the US equivelant).

I doubt very much that anyone will march in protest to stop the RSPCA forcing people to not abuse animals.

pharmaceutical companies are forced to test their products and not lie about their benefits.

I am happy that they are forced to do this and I believe that most people would agree.

This is the strength of democracy where the motivation remains with the individual. It will always be more robust and sustainable than any kind of top-down system even though you have to accept that some people will be 'wrong' on certain issues and have the right to be so. It is the very sloppiness of the system that makes it work.

I dont have a better system. I suppose I am just pissed off by the volume of people who just dont give a shit. I discuss environmental issues with a lot of scientists, most people dont care enough to protect the planet they live in. They will have six kids, then vote in a politician who is against clean air legislation to save a few bucks on taxes.

Every few days I walk through a park that has a large garbage filter running into a pond. The local council has to have this garbage filter shovelled out every time it rains because people dont care enough to not throw their rubbish on the ground.

For a lot of things, we already exist in a top down system. We are told what to do on a lot of things. It annoys me that I cant ride my motorcycle at whatever speed I like. It is really fun to ride very fast. I am forced to ride at the speed limit to protect other people.

Of course we need restrictions and police to enforce them but they have to be backed by popular consent or it wont work.

Some things are wrong even when backed by popular consent. Slavery was wrong regardless of who approved. I suppose that if you include the slaves, then it was not backed by popular consent though. Often, laws are put in place before there is popular consent. People just get used to the idea.
Also, if popular consent was the requirement we would not pay taxes. No one likes it, but everyone has to do it.

The only hope lies in education but it has to be voluntary.

I agree with this as well. I am just unsure if it is fast enough.

The green movement of the 70s is only just starting to filter through now. Thats a four decade delay.

There are farmers in north Queensland who are still using destructive farming methods even though they can see the damage that salinity is doing on land near their house. Or even on parts of their own land. They can see it happening with their own eyes. They just dont care. The only way they will change is if they are forced to change.

You cant teach anybody anything that they dont want to learn.

This is a huge problem. The other part of the problem is that spin doctors can control your 'education' with things other than the truth. Many people may think they are doing the right thing but they will be voting in the way they have been educated to vote.

Authoritarian efforts at survival will only make our demise that much more unpleasant.

I was hoping they could be something like martial law in time of crisis. Brief, unpleasant for everyone concerned by necessary.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ProtoTypical, posted 01-15-2012 10:30 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 236 (648479)
01-16-2012 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by ProtoTypical
01-15-2012 10:30 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
I think you've said all that needs saying. Top-down approaches never work. Enforced change is neither stable nor effective. And this goes beyond the simply immorality of enslaving people's minds in some quasi democratic dictatorship of forced votes to the simple mechanics of what's effective and what isn't.

Forcing people to behave differently simply doesn't work. In the end, all you can do is educate them and give them the tools needed so that hopefully, when the time comes for them to make those important decisions, they will want to make the right ones and not make the right ones simply as a matter of being forced to.

Though we've been emphasizing voting, people every day make hundreds of decisions far more lasting and important than the decision of who's going to sit in what chair for the next few years. From where they shop to how they live, people's lifestyle choices can have far-reaching impact on the the planet and the critters that inhabit it. Forcing people to change only makes them miserable, and then we lose the whole battle of trying to make the world a happier place.

Civic duty can only start and end with the individual, because it is the individual who holds the power to change themself.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ProtoTypical, posted 01-15-2012 10:30 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-16-2012 12:49 AM Jon has responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2763 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 216 of 236 (648480)
01-16-2012 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Jon
01-15-2012 10:35 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Hello Jon,

What if absolutely no one met your standards for intelligence to be allowed to participate in their government?

Why would I set the standard. There are plenty of people more qualified than myself.

If no one passed, then I dont pass either, which means that nothing happens.

If I did set the test and I was the only one to pass, I would reissue the test, as something went terribly wrong.

I do not doubt that a test system would have its faults, I am looking to improve the current system, not replace it.

This is how I see the future in film - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

Do you believe that the current system is without fault? Feel free to just answer for the USA but consider the planet as a whole.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Jon, posted 01-15-2012 10:35 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Jon, posted 01-16-2012 9:02 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2763 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 217 of 236 (648482)
01-16-2012 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Jon
01-16-2012 12:19 AM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Hey Jon,

Top-down approaches never work. Enforced change is neither stable nor effective.

Are speed limits not effective at reducing road tolls? Democracy is a top down appraoch. You vote the guy/lady in, hopefully legitimately, and he makes decisions. Often not the decision he said he/she would make.

And this goes beyond the simply immorality of enslaving people's minds in some quasi democratic dictatorship of forced votes to the simple mechanics of what's effective and what isn't.

Enslaving people minds? Forced votes? quasi democratic dictatorship? what the hell are you talking about?

Forcing people to behave differently simply doesn't work. In the end, all you can do is educate them and give them the tools needed so that hopefully, when the time comes for them to make those important decisions, they will want to make the right ones and not make the right ones simply as a matter of being forced to.

Is this what you think is happening in the USA now? Do you think that the democracy in the USA currently allows people to do the right thing?

Remember this guy?

Though we've been emphasizing voting, people every day make hundreds of decisions far more lasting and important than the decision of who's going to sit in what chair for the next few years. From where they shop to how they live, people's lifestyle choices can have far-reaching impact on the the planet and the critters that inhabit it. Forcing people to change only makes them miserable, and then we lose the whole battle of trying to make the world a happier place.

Do you think that this is reality? Forcing people to change is sometimes a requirement. Would the north have not invaded the south and forced them to abolish slavery because it would make them sad?

Civic duty can only start and end with the individual, because it is the individual who holds the power to change themself.

So when the people who dont give a fuck finally become the majority, where will we be?


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Jon, posted 01-16-2012 12:19 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Jon, posted 01-16-2012 10:08 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 218 of 236 (648483)
01-16-2012 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Butterflytyrant
01-15-2012 7:33 PM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
This problem does not go away in a democracy. I would say it is just as much a problem in a democracy. The USA is a democracy. The current financial crisis seems to be caused by people, including politicians acting in their own self interest.

However, in a democracy, you have at least a chance of getting the interests of the broad mass of the people put above the interests of a few. If instead you put power in the hands of a few, then you're pretty much screwed from the get-go.

We would need to find some people who are extremely altristic. Or have an independant body set their pay.

The biggest problem we have seems to be that people are arseholes. I dont know how to fix that.

Ah, you want a philosopher-king. I volunteer.

I'm not sure that "altruistic" quite describes me, but at least I'd be even-handed in my reign of terror.

Is democracy doing this? How do we judge it?

By and large people do seem to be better off in democracies than dictatorships.

But we need individuals to be responsible citizens in order for this idea of democracy to work. People need to be equally invested in fullfilling their responsibilities as they are to demanding their rights.

Yes, well, people don't like fulfilling their responsibilities. If they did, they wouldn't be called responsibilities, they'd be called hobbies.

Like I said to Coyote, when was the last time you say someone out with a banner screaming at the TV cameras about their responsibilities?

Why would they need to?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-15-2012 7:33 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-16-2012 7:51 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1731
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 6.0


(1)
Message 219 of 236 (648498)
01-16-2012 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by New Cat's Eye
01-13-2012 3:11 PM


Re: Perfectly Informed
Yeah, and felons, and people who are mentally/physically unable to vote.

So if its "everyone"... except for these and these and these and these, then its not really everyone.

Disenfranchising felons is absurd and unjustifiable. Those mentally unable to cast an informed vote is a bit more difficult, but I would err on the side of allowing them to vote.

The point I've tried to make twice now is that already, in actually existing countries, felons and the mentally handicapped do have the vote, so such limits are not an automatic given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-13-2012 3:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2763 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 220 of 236 (648499)
01-16-2012 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dr Adequate
01-16-2012 1:41 AM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Hello Dr A,

However, in a democracy, you have at least a chance of getting the interests of the broad mass of the people put above the interests of a few. If instead you put power in the hands of a few, then you're pretty much screwed from the get-go.

What if we get good people to make the decisions?

h, you want a philosopher-king. I volunteer.

I'm not sure that "altruistic" quite describes me, but at least I'd be even-handed in my reign of terror.

Can we keep the current metric system. I recall a post a while back where you suggested we should introducve a standard distance of measure, the Dr Adequate, and it sould be 9 inches.

By and large people do seem to be better off in democracies than dictatorships.

Have we had a technocracy or a meritocracy to judge this by? Or a combination of these? Have we decided that democracy in its current state is the best we can do?

Yes, well, people don't like fulfilling their responsibilities. If they did, they wouldn't be called responsibilities, they'd be called hobbies.

People not only avoid their reponsibilites, the put large amounts of effort into new and exotic ways to avoid them. The prison populations continues to grow.

Why would they need to?

Poor wording on my part. My point was that it is common to see people complaining about when they believe their rights are being violated. But you never see people out with banners trying to get people to uphold their responsibilities.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-16-2012 1:41 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by frako, posted 01-16-2012 8:31 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2823
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 221 of 236 (648502)
01-16-2012 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Butterflytyrant
01-16-2012 7:51 AM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
What if we get good people to make the decisions?

Power corrupts, dosent matter how good the person is sooner or later the taste of power will corrupt him.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-16-2012 7:51 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 236 (648509)
01-16-2012 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Butterflytyrant
01-16-2012 12:22 AM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Do you believe that the current system is without fault?

No. For example, I think there are far too many issues that are put to public vote. I think we'd benefit by reducing the number of things available to vote on.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-16-2012 12:22 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by frako, posted 01-16-2012 9:07 AM Jon has not yet responded
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frako
Member
Posts: 2823
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 223 of 236 (648510)
01-16-2012 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Jon
01-16-2012 9:02 AM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
No. For example, I think there are far too many issues that are put to public vote. I think we'd benefit by reducing the number of things available to vote on.

What would the benefits be?
What do you not want a public vote on?


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Jon, posted 01-16-2012 9:02 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 236 (648524)
01-16-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Butterflytyrant
01-16-2012 12:49 AM


Re: Dat's Perdi' Fascist of You...
Do you think that the democracy in the USA currently allows people to do the right thing?

Of course it does; how does it not?

So when the people who dont give a fuck finally become the majority, where will we be?

Presumably the people who don't give a fuck don't give a fuck, and those who do can still go to the polls to vote.

Democracy is a top down appraoch.

By its very definition it is not.

Enslaving people minds? Forced votes? quasi democratic dictatorship? what the hell are you talking about?

The fascist hell you are proposing we all live in.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-16-2012 12:49 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2252 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 225 of 236 (648525)
01-16-2012 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Jon
01-15-2012 8:57 PM


Right to Vote
I think you can make your position stronger by arguing that voting is a HUMAN right.

Although I agree with you and encourage you, you might get more mileage by avoiding calling people fascist. The people who believe that democracy should be restricted are well meaning because they see a true problem. What is sad is that their visceral reaction is to punish their neighbor instead of helping them. Its very sad and while I agree it is a scary sentiment, I don't think they are fascists.

At least in the US, our problems are not because TOO MANY people are voting. Its the exact opposite.


BUT if objects for gratitude and admiration are our desire, do they not present themselves every hour to our eyes? Do we not see a fair creation prepared to receive us the instant we are born --a world furnished to our hands, that cost us nothing? Is it we that light up the sun; that pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on. Are these things, and the blessings they indicate in future, nothing to, us? Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator? --Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 01-15-2012 8:57 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Jon, posted 01-16-2012 11:51 AM Jazzns has responded

  
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