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Author Topic:   A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15629
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 181 of 304 (647933)
01-12-2012 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by GDR
01-12-2012 2:25 AM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
It's straightforward, but irrelevant. You are ignoring the fact that in this case the writings in question are supposed to be about Jesus. Pointing to verses that you believe to be about Jesus isn't enough. Pointing to verses which (Jesus would say) the Pharisees didn't believe us not enough. You need verses which fit both criteria. That should be both simple and obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 01-12-2012 2:25 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by GDR, posted 01-12-2012 11:16 AM PaulK has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5043
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 182 of 304 (647969)
01-12-2012 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by PaulK
01-12-2012 2:48 AM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
Not at all. If the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders expected a messiah that was coming come and lead a revolution and defeat Rome in battle, they would hardly recognize a messiah that tells them to love their enemy and turn the other cheek. They wouldn't recognize a messiah that was telling people that you don't go to the Temple to be forgiven sins but that He would and could do it Himself. Jesus as Messiah was a repudiation of just about everything they believed.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2012 2:48 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2012 11:59 AM GDR has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15629
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 183 of 304 (647975)
01-12-2012 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by GDR
01-12-2012 11:16 AM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
quote:

Not at all.

Why not ? If someone says that there are writings of Moses that are about Jesus and which the Pharisees did not believe, it can only be true if there are writings of Moses that are about Jesus which the Pharisees did not believe. How can you possibly disagree with that ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by GDR, posted 01-12-2012 11:16 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by GDR, posted 01-12-2012 1:52 PM PaulK has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5043
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 184 of 304 (647990)
01-12-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by PaulK
01-12-2012 11:59 AM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
Because they believed the specific verse but they did not believe that it referred to Jesus, because they did not believe the basic message that God was about love, forgiveness and mercy, the message that Jesus believed was the essential message of the Torah.

You cleverly almost have me arguing for the position I am opposing. We could go back and forward on this forever but I frankly don’t see it leading to any successful conclusion. I still believe that my understanding is correct but in the end if Jesus did misspeak or even if the writers did not transcribe accurately, (neither which I think is the case), it doesn’t affect my understanding of the Christian faith.

At any rate you have cleverly dragged me off the point of the thread was to trying to make which was to point out that a literalist reading of the Scriptures not only gives us a perverted view of God but that it is impossible to actually maintain anyway. (If they were really serious we’d see a lot more one eyed Christians around for example. )

quote:
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Cheers


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2012 11:59 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2012 2:11 PM GDR has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15629
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 185 of 304 (647992)
01-12-2012 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by GDR
01-12-2012 1:52 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
quote:

Because they believed the specific verse but they did not believe that it referred to Jesus, because they did not believe the basic message that God was about love, forgiveness and mercy, the message that Jesus believed was the essential message of the Torah.

So you're saying that you have to pretend that Jesus was right - even though he was wrong - because you support his beliefs over those you attribute to the Pharisees ? Certainly I can't see any reason to deny a logical truth in there.

quote:

You cleverly almost have me arguing for the position I am opposing

I'm not doing anything particularly clever here, just repeating an obvious and simple truth which you seem determined to deny for no good reason. This seems to be like your suggestion that actually supporting your position would be a "rabbit" hole"

quote:

At any rate you have cleverly dragged me off the point of the thread was to trying to make which was to point out that a literalist reading of the Scriptures not only gives us a perverted view of God but that it is impossible to actually maintain anyway.

Really I haven't. NoNukes started this subtopic. You've chosen to drag it out with evasion and denial of the truth. I'd say that you've done far more to drag yourself off topic than I have.


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 Message 184 by GDR, posted 01-12-2012 1:52 PM GDR has responded

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GDR
Member
Posts: 5043
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 186 of 304 (648028)
01-12-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by PaulK
01-12-2012 2:11 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
PaulK writes:

Really I haven't. NoNukes started this subtopic. You've chosen to drag it out with evasion and denial of the truth. I'd say that you've done far more to drag yourself off topic than I have.

That's the trouble with forums like this. I only meant that in a very tongue in cheek kind of way. I agree completely that it is me that has allowed it to be dragged off topic.

I go off track easily as I enjoy the discussion. As far as that discussion goes I think we're at an impasse.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2012 2:11 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-18-2012 12:53 AM GDR has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(2)
Message 187 of 304 (648729)
01-18-2012 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by GDR
01-12-2012 5:43 PM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
GDR writes
That form of Christianity IMHO is not the Christianity espoused by either Jesus or Paul, nor is it the Christianity of Augustine or Lewis. As I mentioned before, it is closer to the religion of the Pharisees and the Temple money changers than it is to the teachings of Jesus.

Your opinion is neither humble or accurate as I will demonstrate

I wanted to bring your silly comments over to this thread, as they relate to it more, than they do to the previous thread. To introduce these types of comments in that thread and that summation, not only shows a lack of intelligence, but it demonstrates you know nothing about good form in debating

I don’t know what it was that caused agent 509 to lose his faith but if I had to believe in the Christianity of Dawn and Buz I would quickly lose mine as well. In the first place they don’t actually believe the message of the Scriptures, but at the same time they claim intimate knowledge of them.

As I have demonstrated to many times to mention, you dont know what, nor can you believe anything the scriptures has to say because you run around picking and choosing out of both the Old and New testament what suits your fancies. Then when I ask you why you belief it and how you establish it, you say becuase Jesus believed it

Of course anyone with half a brain knows the only way you know anything about Jesus is contained in the scripture, therefore we have no way of knowing, whether those writers were accurate about Jesus or what they said he said, and this is both the way you establish what is truth and amazingly, yet with the audacity of an untrained youth, this is also the same way you use, to run around condeming people like myself and Buz for believing what it actually says

Only someone not paying any attention at all, or someone that is blinded by complete stupidity, could not see the contradiction they have involved themself in. Your condemantionof myself and Buz is as silly as the method you use to make the claim

Since Jesus is the only one that ever spoke ill of the Pharisees and that is contained in the Bible, how do we know, using your method of truth, if he was correct, or should I say his scribes were correct, concerning the pharisees

Since Jesus never wrote anything downor didnt claim to, how in the world can you trust the scribes of the NT, using your method of Pick and Coose

You see my point GDR, you cant even trust using your method of establishing truth, which is actually no method

Every passage i have presented to you and asked you to simply state whether it is actually true or not, especilly concerning miracles and supernatural things, you sidestep them and pretend they dont make a difference

Does anyone actually believe that a God whose intelligence is responsible for all of creation would also be petty enough to worry about what we believe about how we came into existence, or about a supposed flood a few thousand years ago?

Only someone that understands little or nothing would make such ridiculous comment. The only way you can know that the God of the Bible created anything is for it to tell you that in the first place

On the other hand, only someone with little or no faith would believe that the God that did create the universe, could not perform a miracle, such as the flood. My simple friend, the purpose of Genesis is to let you know how you came into existence, in the first place. Why would you make such a silly comment concerning whether God would worry about that. Of course he does, that is why you have that account to begin with

Oh I see now. Now you are discarding any of that as truth as well. Do you see what happens GDR? Little by little, piece by piece, statement by statement, story by story, truth by truth, passage by passage, book by book, you eliminate any semblence of truth. And you do this by your ridiculous method of establishing truth

The fundamentalists/literalists are the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees.

had you known what the actual pharisees were like and what they actually did, for Jesus to make such a comment, you would not apply this accusation to myself and BuZ. They were thieves, murders, adulterers, extortionists and the such like. You do remember that according to the NT, they had Jesus put to death correct. Do you claim such things for me and Buz

Jesus said that they were, on the outside like white washed tombs, but inwardly they were full of dead mens bones. You dont even know me and Buz. The arrogance and stupidity attached to your statement, staggers the imagination

Thats is, if we can, in the first place according to your silly method of finding truth, know, if that which the writes wrote was accurate in the first place Your accusation is based both in unsound reasoning and a complete lack of knowledge about who and what the Pharisees were.

Since you believe in Jesus words you should employ the principle by him, to "Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgement" Until you know what Buz' and my life are like, you should not use lean on your own understanding. Jesus knew without a doubt, the activity that the pharisees involved themself in, then he experienced first hand. You on the other hand seem to know diddly

If you notice the fundamentalists spend a great deal of time arguing against evolution or arguing about the flood. I really have to wonder if they really believe that the God of creation, the loving God we see in Jesus would think that this is a good use of the gift of time that they have been given.

Ah yes the pot calling the kettle black. Of course as you have demonstrated you already have wide range of discussion in many different areas, inlcuding that thread correct?

I suppose that you are too blind or simple to see that We, like you, are arguing for the truth of scripture. Whether that comes in the form of discussing the flood or in the form of, what are, actually Gods words Of course you wouldnt see such a simple point would you, since you have everything figured out, correct?

So we will see how much time you actually want to spend here,, defending what you believe to be truth, right

That form of Christianity IMHO is not the Christianity espoused by either Jesus or Paul, nor is it the Christianity of Augustine or Lewis. As I mentioned before, it is closer to the religion of the Pharisees and the Temple money changers than it is to the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus, Paul, Augustine and Lewis, were not confronted with the same issues that misdirect people from Gods truth, as we are today. Its a different type of error and a different threat to Gods word

If you were around in the Apostle John's day, you would be telling the Apostle John, Ahhh come on John, does it really matter whether people ACTUALLY believe, whether Jesus really came in the flesh or not. Just as long as they love God and thier neighbor, isnt that ok John?

You would be asking John, Do you really mean I cannot sit down and eat with or fellowship with someone, who does not believe that? You would be telling John, using your form of interpretation, John that is not Christ like, is it

When you learn what truth is and how to establish it, it will matter to you as well. When you quit telling God, his word and his Apostles what to believe and not to believe, what matters and what does not matter, then and only then GDR, will you, understand truth

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your

While that is important, as you can see from the Apostle John, it is not all that matters, GDR. Todays, is a different threat, a different evil. In that other thread, I have exposed it with stinging accuracy, with the gift froom God, as you have described it.

Thank you for reminding me where our talents come from

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by GDR, posted 01-12-2012 5:43 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-18-2012 2:03 AM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 190 by GDR, posted 01-18-2012 10:46 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2760 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 188 of 304 (648731)
01-18-2012 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dawn Bertot
01-18-2012 12:53 AM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
Dawn,

In that other thread, I have exposed it with stinging accuracy, with the gift froom God

Your gifts from god appear to be staggering stupidity, delusions of grandeur, a distinct lack of humility, a total blindness to reality, an awsome ability to avoid learning and a paucity of knowledge in regards to any subject other than you favouite bronze age myth.

This is a science thread. I suppose you will attempt to derail this thread with your drivel. I can only assume it is one of the symptoms of your particular mental illness.

The only thing that you have exposed is your ability to repell intelligent discourse.

It is possible that people are now less intelligent for having interacted with you.

Thank you for reminding me where our talents come from

In my opinion, your greatest talent is showing people the dangers of fundamentalism. You are more effective at driving people away from religion than a dozen scientists.

Thank you for that and keep up the good work!


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-18-2012 12:53 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-18-2012 8:21 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded
 Message 191 by AdminModulous, posted 01-18-2012 3:38 PM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 189 of 304 (648744)
01-18-2012 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Butterflytyrant
01-18-2012 2:03 AM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
This is a science thread. I suppose you will attempt to derail this thread with your drivel. I can only assume it is one of the symptoms of your particular mental illness.

The only thing that you have exposed is your ability to repell intelligent discourse.

It is possible that people are now less intelligent for having interacted with you.

Now isnt this interesting. I spent the entire post responding to GDRs comments, which correlate exacally to the topic of the thread

Butterflytyrant does nothing but attack me, and makes no attempt to address comments by GDR, or those by myself, or the subject at hand, but it is me that is suppose to be derailing the thread. Amazing!!!!!!!

Do you Butterfly, ever pay attention to reason, reality or the ridiulous comments you make?

In my opinion, your greatest talent is showing people the dangers of fundamentalism. You are more effective at driving people away from religion than a dozen scientists.

Thank you for that and keep up the good work!

Why dont you apply your "opinion" to the topic at hand and the thread, lets eee if you can make sense of that

You wouldnt know what fundamentalism was, even if it were following you. You wouldnt understannd why it is so important, even if it fell in your lap

Hey Butterfly, why dont you just stick to the topic?

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-18-2012 2:03 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5043
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 190 of 304 (648764)
01-18-2012 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dawn Bertot
01-18-2012 12:53 AM


Re: Questions Re: A summation
You keep repeating the same thing over and over. I have told you numerous times how we discern the truth from the Scriptures but you just ignore my answers and at the same time your only method of resolving contradictions in the Scriptures is to say that they don't exist.

As the thread on "Tentativity and the Bible" seems to be have been ignored by everyone including the originator I'll repeat what I said on that thread here. My point is that neither Jesus nor Paul understood the Hebrew Scriptures as being the inerrent Word of God.

For example Jesus said this when asked about divorce in Mark 4.

quote:
4 They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." 5 "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6 "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 7 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one.

Jesus doesn't say that God said this, but that "Moses said this", and then He goes back before that to Genesis to show what it was that God wanted.

In Matthew 19 Jesus reaffirms what He had said earlier.

quote:
7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

He is saying that Moses got it wrong. It is obvious that Jesus saw these Scriptures as being written by men not God.

in Matthew 5 he puts it this way.

quote:
31 "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

In this quote in referring to the Scriptures he merely says that "it has been said".

Jesus did not understand the Scriptures to be read as the literal Word of God. He used His reason, His wisdom and the Holy Spirit in the "Testing of All Things".

Paul did the same. In addition to your quote Paul said this in 1 Corinthians 6:

quote:
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything.

Paul is essentially repudiating such things as the food laws and saying that we have to determine what is beneficial to us.

Paul writes this in Romans 2:

quote:
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Our righteousness with God is not based on keeping a set of laws, it is based on our hearts. Do we love selfishly or unselfishly? Is our joy found in self gratification or is it found by bringing and finding joy in others. Is it all about me or is it about God's good creation?

The fundamentalists who insist that the Bible is to be understood as coming word for word from God are modern day Pharisees that pervert the message of God.

I remember walking into a fundamentalist church one time when I was working out of town and being asked by the Pastor if I was saved. This whole thing of being saved, meaning am I going to heaven or not, completely misconstrues the Gospel message. If this is the fundamental aim of Christianity it would mean that the basic goal of the whole faith is self centred. It becomes how do I avoid hell and get to heaven. The Gospel message is about love for others and opposed to self love so the whole basis of fundamentalism is flawed from the outset.

Here is a passage from Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians chap 4.

quote:
1 Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court ; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted ; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God. 6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 7 For who regards you as superior ? What do you have that you did not receive ? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

The Bible says that we are not to judge each other or even ourselves. We are to let God figure that out, yet the fundamentalists ignore that part of the Bible because it does not conform to their idiosyncratic version of Christianity.

Again, as this passage points out, we are not judged on our religious beliefs, but on the condition of our hearts. That is the message of the Gospel - it is not the message that the fundamentalists preach with their twisting of the meaning of John 3:16 IMHO.

Yes, I believe that there is judgement but it is based on our where our heart is, not based on a total denial of our gifts of reason and wisdom and accepting a literal version of the Bible giving us a God who tells us to love our enemy but also that it is fine to slaughter his whole community.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-18-2012 12:53 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


(1)
Message 191 of 304 (648800)
01-18-2012 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Butterflytyrant
01-18-2012 2:03 AM


Your gifts from god appear to be staggering stupidity, delusions of grandeur, a distinct lack of humility, a total blindness to reality, an awsome ability to avoid learning and a paucity of knowledge in regards to any subject other than you favouite bronze age myth...attempt to derail this thread with your drivel...it is one of the symptoms of your particular mental illness...It is possible that people are now less intelligent for having interacted with you.

You may well criticize Dawn for any number of faults, but I see here that you made a post that made no content in the advancement of the topic of the problems of a literal interpretation of Scripture. The primary purpose of your thread seems to be to attack Dawn.

Please don't do that. Please do advance the subject by adding arguments that support the notion that a literal interpretation of Scripture is problematic. Please don't respond to this message here (take it to the moderator Whine thread if you must comment).

If you think Dawn is causing the thread to go offtopic or is otherwise in contravention of rules, please notify us in Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 rather than making these kinds of posts. Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Butterflytyrant, posted 01-18-2012 2:03 AM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5869
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 192 of 304 (651023)
02-03-2012 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by NoNukes
12-01-2011 9:12 AM


Reading the allegories as allegories and the metaphors as metaphors is reading the Bible literally.

Well, therein lies the problem. My point is how does one determine what is meant to be literal and what is meant to be allegorical?

When Jesus said that nothing is impossible with God, did he literally mean that you can tell mountains to throw themselves into the sea? I only ask because, curiously, we've never seen that. Ever.

So, was Jesus using intentional hyperbole when he said that with God nothing is impossible, or was he being literal?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2011 9:12 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

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GDR
Member
Posts: 5043
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 193 of 304 (651144)
02-04-2012 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2012 8:04 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

Well, therein lies the problem. My point is how does one determine what is meant to be literal and what is meant to be allegorical?

It isn't really much of a problem IMHO. Take the story of "The Good Samaritan” or the "Prodigal Son" for example. I think we can see here what No Nukes is getting at. We generally assume that the stories are not based on actual events but that in no way diminishes the truth that the stories are meant to convey.

Broken down to its most basic elements I see Christianity bringing the message that there is a loving God who brought about the creation of all that we know, and has a plan on how it will all come to conclusion with perfect justice based on perfect love. In the meantime humans have been given the job of reflecting that perfect love into the creation. (I realize that we aren't doing much of a job of it but it does appear that the overall trajectory of human history is going in the right direction.)

I just believe that it is important to understand that the Bible is not some collection of books dictated through thousands of literary and oral bits of information, through a multitude of editors and redactors to become supernaturally one book dictated by God.

Yes I agree that people have been inspired to record the images that God has implanted on their imaginations which they have faithfully done, but we should recognize that in doing that they also impose their own personal and cultural views on what was written. But, particularly as understood through the lens of the gospels and the teaching of Jesus a great deal of what was written has become clear.

The trouble is that so many want hard and fast answers to all the hard questions and in many cases the simple ones as well. In the end I think that the answers boil down to where our hearts lie. Do our thoughts and actions lead us and others to a form of selfish love that moves us further from God or do to a sacrificial love that is about finding joy in seeing and bringing joy to others that draws us closer to God.

You can then ask how we believe any of it. In that sense how can we believe any historical account. All ancient writings are coloured by the views of the authors but from them we can glean all sorts of truths that we can be reasonably sure of. We read the accounts of the "Battle of Hastings" knowing full well that the accounts are going to give more or less an account biased towards William but we can be pretty sure that there actually was a battle and that the Normans won. In the same way we can look at the accounts of the resurrection and see that there is consensus, even though some details differ, that the resurrection was an actual historical event. (The other possible conclusion is that for some reason which remains obscure to me they conspired to make the whole thing up but I guess that is where it becomes an issue of faith.)

I've wandered around a great deal in all of this but hopefully it does do something to help answer your question.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2012 8:04 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
hugenot
Junior Member (Idle past 2754 days)
Posts: 7
From: palm beach gardnes, fl
Joined: 02-13-2012


Message 194 of 304 (652479)
02-13-2012 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
11-29-2011 7:24 PM


Stoping the worship of baal
We need to understand that at the time Israel was a theocracy and God was the leader of the country! Then at that time Israel wanted to have kings like other nations.
I am from France and i have never seen so much wickedness as over there, cause i lives in America all my life.
The reason is that over there the government lets people do whatever they please, even if they steal, most people are not arrested.
It is quite amazing to see now a whole country filled with 100000 of young people wholy bent on sin and stealing and lying.
When eveil is not met, then evil grows.
Evil has to be met for the good of the majority of people living in the country!
God had to stop baal worship!
http://www.bible-tube.com/prophecies-prophecy.php

Edited by Admin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 11-29-2011 7:24 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
jrchamblee
Junior Member (Idle past 2700 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 02-08-2012


Message 195 of 304 (652586)
02-14-2012 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
11-29-2011 7:24 PM


The only answer I have for this is that when Adam an Eve were evicted from the Garden of Eden, The bible says it is appointed for man to Die,it does not say how man had to die ? Or by who ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 11-29-2011 7:24 PM GDR has responded

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 Message 196 by GDR, posted 02-14-2012 11:11 PM jrchamblee has not yet responded
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