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Author Topic:   Instinctual Behavior Vs Intelligent Decisions
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 76 of 83 (648374)
01-15-2012 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by zi ko
01-14-2012 11:01 PM


Re: innate intelligence in life?
Is animal intelligene inherited?
Yes.
How Is it acquired?
Through the genes.
when does it start appearing in animal scale?
I don't follow the question. I'm going to answer: When the brain develops.
Does it affect evolution?
In so much as behaviour has an impact on the destiny of a population.
Is it instinctual or learnt?
Yes.
Does it differ from that of man except quantitavely?
Maybe, thought there are certain brain structures that I believe that are unique to humans.
Is "correcting mechanism"inside cells a sign of primeval intelligence?
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by zi ko, posted 01-14-2012 11:01 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by zi ko, posted 01-16-2012 11:18 PM Modulous has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 77 of 83 (648610)
01-16-2012 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Modulous
01-15-2012 3:50 AM


Re: innate intelligence in nature.
Through the genes.
Had ever been found a specific gene related to a specific instinct or part of it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Modulous, posted 01-15-2012 3:50 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Modulous, posted 01-17-2012 3:51 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 79 by Wounded King, posted 01-17-2012 11:53 AM zi ko has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 78 of 83 (648622)
01-17-2012 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by zi ko
01-16-2012 11:18 PM


Re: innate intelligence in nature.
Had ever been found a specific gene related to a specific instinct or part of it?
My limited understanding of genetics would suggest that the idea that there is a 'gene for x behaviour' or a 'gene for y trait' is erroneous thinking, possibly fueled by journalistic reporting of genetic studies which merely indicate that certain genes may be involved in some way with said traits.
But I would say that I think studies in mice and other similar animals have shown that instinctive traits such as 'aggression' have a genetic component, but I don't know the details. I guess you could look them up with a bit of searching around if you are genuinely interested.
I do seem to remember that when scientists domesticated foxes, making them less aggressive this had an impact to their coat colour because coat colour was on the same developmental pathway as adrenaline or something along those lines. This was thought to be genetic.
I'd hunt around for something more specific, but since it isn't really the topic of this thread, I don't feel compelled to throw this thread in an off topic direction for you.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by zi ko, posted 01-16-2012 11:18 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:25 PM Modulous has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 79 of 83 (648655)
01-17-2012 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by zi ko
01-16-2012 11:18 PM


Could you be more ... specific?
Unfortunately this is once again getting into definitional issues. There is a paper "Are Complex Behaviors Specified by Dedicated Regulatory Genes? Reasoning from Drosophila" (Baker et al., 2001). from the title one might think this will clear the matter up, and this is the case if one is prepared to accept their definition of what constitutes a gene 'specifying' a behaviour.
Baker et al, 2001 writes:
we will say that a gene specifies a behavior if, in an otherwise wild-type organism, the functioning of that gene is necessary and sufficient to establish the potential for a particular behavior. Note that this definition does not require there be only one regulatory gene specifying a behavior. Indeed, we expect that if there are regulatory genes specifying individual behaviors, they likely function in regulatory hierarchies to build the potential for a specific behavior into the nervous system.
Note also that this definition of specify does not say that it is the gene specifying a behavior that is solely responsible for that behavior. Elementary a priori considerations suggest that the appropriate functioning of many genes is essential for all behaviors. Any behavior requires the functioning of a multicellular circuit beginning with input to the nervous system, propagation and interpretation of that input in the CNS, and output via neurons that directs a response via neuromuscular, or neuroendocrine systems, or both. Impairment of any part of such a circuit is likely to cause decrements in the behavior it subserves.
[...]
Thus, many genes must function to set up the nervous system's structure, and subsequently to elicit and manifest neuromuscular/endocrine functions. We take the preceding statement as an obvious, and not a particularly interesting, truth; and it is not germane to the issue we are addressing.
You should like the paper, it uses the word neural a lot, though sadly not the word empathy.
If you find their definition acceptable I could provide some examples, I'm not sure what the actual access status of that paper is.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by zi ko, posted 01-16-2012 11:18 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:00 PM Wounded King has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 80 of 83 (648775)
01-18-2012 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Wounded King
01-17-2012 11:53 AM


Re: Could you be more ... specific?
Thank you W.K.
As a start the definition Baker gives is quite near to what my theory says (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com).
Iquote my self:
Thinking neural system is a functional extension of genome, intervening in evolution process in a decisive way. .....
In multi-cellular level, due to increased complexity and the greater distances, information has to travel from environment to genome. Here I think we are ultimately obliged to put in the picture the neural system (together with the adrenal one), as it’s known properties, as a transfer mechanism, makes it the best choice among other tissues. On the other hand the somatic/germline division in metazoa calls for a mechanism that connects these two.
Neural system’s new role.......
Information staff, after it had entered inside neural system is not just being transferred by it; information is being coded, valuated, emotionally colored and memorized e.c.t. There is choosing between information that is useful to survival and that it is not, understanding of possible dangers, threats, learning from mistakes or successes. Inside neural tissue tendencies are created, special actions of response are chosen, solutions to problems are found, plans are made etc. Also neural system decides what to transfer from the load of incoming information to genome of each organism, or, through empathy, to other members of the species and so to wide population genome. ......
I would love to have your exambpes.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Wounded King, posted 01-17-2012 11:53 AM Wounded King has replied

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 Message 81 by Wounded King, posted 01-18-2012 12:15 PM zi ko has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 81 of 83 (648777)
01-18-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by zi ko
01-18-2012 12:00 PM


Re: Could you be more ... specific?
I see no similarity between what you say and what Baker wrote, except that some of the same words are used.
I'll try and post later with some of the examples from the paper.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:00 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 82 of 83 (648779)
01-18-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Modulous
01-17-2012 3:51 AM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
But I would say that I think studies in mice and other similar animals have shown that instinctive traits such as 'aggression' have a genetic component, but I don't know the details. I guess you could look them up with a bit of searching around if you are genuinely interested.
Of course behaviour has a genetical component. B ut it needs a wide intervention by neural system. That implies an equally wide intervention of learning process. That means that instinct formation is not a so clear cut genetical process.
The relative work is:
Animal evolution during domestication: the domesticated fox as a model.
Lyudmila Trut.*
I also refer to Message 79 by W.K.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Modulous, posted 01-17-2012 3:51 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Modulous, posted 01-18-2012 1:40 PM zi ko has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 83 of 83 (648786)
01-18-2012 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by zi ko
01-18-2012 12:25 PM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
Of course behaviour has a genetical component.
Right. So why ask
quote:
Had ever been found a specific gene related to a specific instinct or part of it?
If you already knew the answer?
B ut it needs a wide intervention by neural system. That means that instinct formation is not a so clear cut genetical process
But the way intelligence is inherited is via the genes, that was the question I was answering. The way it develops is through interaction with the environment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:25 PM zi ko has not replied

  
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