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Author Topic:   When does human life begin?
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 1 of 327 (649395)
01-23-2012 8:41 AM


This sunday in the Catholic church in the U.S. was Right to Life sunday calling attention to the U.S. Supreme Court descision Roe v. Wade that legalized abortion through the creation of a right right to privacy interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.
The Catholic chrurch's postion is that life begins at conception.
Is there a medical- scientific postion on when human life begins? If so what evidence for that postion?
I am not a scientist, but based upon my beliefs I concur with the church's postion. The Roe v. Wade decision medically is really not supported by any scientific evidence, just the belief of Justice Burger.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 01-23-2012 8:56 AM shadow71 has replied
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 Message 7 by Larni, posted 01-23-2012 9:27 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 8 by Coragyps, posted 01-23-2012 9:32 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 10 by nwr, posted 01-23-2012 10:14 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 12 by Rahvin, posted 01-23-2012 12:00 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 13 by Panda, posted 01-23-2012 12:14 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 26 by frako, posted 01-23-2012 5:24 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 181 by RAZD, posted 01-27-2012 8:24 PM shadow71 has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 14 of 327 (649456)
01-23-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
01-23-2012 8:56 AM


Percy writes:
When human life begins is a question of definitions, not science.
I am asking as to whether there is a scienctific definition of when human life begins.
In the U.S. the federal and State legislatures, if drafting a law as to what constitutes the crime of murder, will consult the scientific community in re the definition of human life.

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 Message 3 by Percy, posted 01-23-2012 8:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by JonF, posted 01-23-2012 3:10 PM shadow71 has replied
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 15 of 327 (649457)
01-23-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Straggler
01-23-2012 9:07 AM


Re: Conceptuses
Straggler writes:
And when exactly is that? The "moment" of conception is fraught with gradualistic realities. Firstly sometimes more than one sperm penetrates the egg and it takes time for the egg to eject those extra chromosones. And even once we are down to a single sperm it can be over a day before the genes of the sperm and egg combine. And then another day for the new genome to control the cell. So the "moment" of conception is more like a 48 hour period. When during this process has a human life been created do you think?
I would think the time of conception is when the sperm and egg have combined to form 46 human chromosomes that are implanted in the uterus and the human embro is formed.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Straggler, posted 01-23-2012 2:56 PM shadow71 has replied
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 16 of 327 (649458)
01-23-2012 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Larni
01-23-2012 9:27 AM


Larni writes:
When you say 'life' what exactly do you mean? In the UK 24 weeks is concidered the cut off for abortion and this boils down to being viable.
At conception when the egg and sperm form 46 human chromosomes and the embryo comes into existence.

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Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 32 of 327 (649497)
01-23-2012 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coragyps
01-23-2012 9:32 AM


Coragyps writes:
Shadow, I would imagine that you think there is something called a "soul." I know the Catholic Church thinks so. Is there any evidence for souls, or any evidence as to when they enter a zygote/morula/blastula/embryo/fetus/infant
Yes I do belive in a soul. I know of no physical evidence for a soul. A soul is a gift from God. It enters the human when the human becomes life. Am I wrong? Maybe. Are you wrong? Maybe. It just appears to me after living my life with a wonderful wife, loving children, a little girl who died in the womb at 7 months, and beautiful grandchildren, I don't want to error on the side of being wrong as to when life begins. I can't phantom ending a possible life that is conceived by the natural process of our evolutionary process.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 34 of 327 (649500)
01-23-2012 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by nwr
01-23-2012 10:14 AM


nwr writes:
If, on the other hand, "human life" refers to being a moral agent, then that agency slowly develops over the first few years after birth. It does not suddenly jump into existence.
Is it your moral viewpoint that until about a few years after birth it's ok for the "moral agent" the mother to terminate the "life" she gave birth to?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by nwr, posted 01-23-2012 10:03 PM shadow71 has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 35 of 327 (649501)
01-23-2012 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Panda
01-23-2012 12:14 PM


-Panda writes:
The Justices did not make a decision about when life began.
Their decision was based on foetal viability and the extent of the states power to intervene.
This is from the wiki link you cited
The Court later rejected Roe's trimester framework, while affirming Roe's central holding that a person has a right to abortion up until viability.[1] The Roe decision defined "viable" as being "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid," adding that viability "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[2]
that is making a decision as to when life begins. If the court had ruled that life began at conception, it could not have allowed abortion. Your are dealing in semantics.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 37 of 327 (649504)
01-23-2012 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Rahvin
01-23-2012 2:55 PM


Rhavin writes:
Why do you believe moral weight is attached to chromosomes rather than minds? The skin cells I shed every day possess the same genetic code as the rest of me; their loss is a loss of "human life" in biologically the same sense as a fertilized egg that simply fails to implant. Why does one carry moral weight and the other not? What gives moral significance to a human being, in your opinion?
I don't attach any significance to chromosomes as life itself. I am saying that there is a point when life begins, and it appears the most logical point is when the new life has assumed all the necessary attributes to begin developing along the evolutinary pathway. So when life begins, It is my moral opinion that no one has the right to terminate that life.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Rahvin, posted 01-23-2012 8:05 PM shadow71 has replied
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 38 of 327 (649505)
01-23-2012 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Straggler
01-23-2012 2:56 PM


Re: Conceptuses
Straggler writes:
Can I ask if you believe in the existence of a soul?
And if so when do you think the soul is formed?
Yes I believe in the existence of a soul. I think it is implanted in a human being when life begins.

This message is a reply to:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 40 of 327 (649507)
01-23-2012 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by JonF
01-23-2012 3:10 PM


JonF writes:
Where did you obtain your idea that "I would think the time of conception is when the sperm and egg have combined to form 46 human chromosomes that are implanted in the uterus and the human embyro is formed."? From a scientific paper or from somewhere else?
One of my sources is Ernst Mayr "What Evolution is."
p.106 "Each individual is a unique combination of the 2 sets of parental genes, and it is the phenotype, the product of the genotype (the recombined set of genes) that is ordinarily the natural target of selection...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 41 of 327 (649509)
01-23-2012 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by hooah212002
01-23-2012 3:26 PM


Re: Conceptuses
hooah212002 writes:
In the unlikely event you say "well, if there are defects or problems, then abortion would be ok" where is your moral compass to say one life is worth more than another, regardless if there are defects? ALL (human) life is worth saving, right? What about a woman who falls and has a miscarriage? Should she be charged with murder, manslaughter or negligent homicide? The same goes for when the fertilized egg doesn't stick. Maybe we could contact DCFS when the fertilized egg gets implanted outside the uterus: we could charge her with a hostile living environment?
I donot say one life is worth more than another. I say all lifes are equal and no man has the right to terminate a life. It is quite a different situation from having a miscarriage to making the intentional decision to terminate a life no matter in what stage that life may be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by hooah212002, posted 01-23-2012 3:26 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by hooah212002, posted 01-23-2012 8:37 PM shadow71 has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 82 of 327 (649659)
01-24-2012 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by subbie
01-23-2012 7:21 PM


subbie writes:
So you value the possible life of the fetus over the actual, extant life of the woman?
that for me is a difficult question. If a mother's life is in danger as a result of her pregancy that is not the same as a "mother" who terminates because of "social " reasons.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 84 of 327 (649661)
01-24-2012 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Rahvin
01-23-2012 7:50 PM


Rahvin writes:
I'm sorry to hear that. Clearly you felt (and feel) the loss of your unborn child. For what it's worth, this would be the third trimester and I would consider the fetus to be worthy of moral consideration - it would have a developed nervous system and have passed the point where brain waves can be detected, meaning it could potentially be aware of its own existence.
However...your wife has almost certainly had many other eggs fertilized by your sperm, but fail to implant correctly in her uterine wall or otherwise naturally fail to proceed to a point where you could even tell she was pregnant. It's estimated that around 60% of all pregnancies end this way, without anyone even noticing.
thank you for your empathy.
I have given my opinion as to when life begins. If in fact the evolutinary process has not begun, such as when the egg fertilized by the sperm has not implanted and begun to grow, that is nature, that is not an intentional act.
jRahvin writes:
Did those embryos have "souls?" Did they carry (to you) the same moral weight as the daughter who died just 8 weeks before birth, or the children you were able to see grow? If not, then again, there is a massive and obvious inconsistency in your moral reasoning. This question is not rhetorical, I'd like to know your opinion.
If they did not begin the process of life then that was nature taking it's course. I believe the soul is placed in active life, whenever the Lord wishes.
So once life begins and the soul is in fact in the human being then the destruction is almost never acceptable. Remembering this is my "human" opinion. God knows.

This message is a reply to:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 85 of 327 (649663)
01-24-2012 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Rahvin
01-23-2012 8:05 PM


Rahvin writes:
Let's put it another way. You and I are trapped by a deranged supervillain, who gives us a diabolical choice: he will try to kill us both. There is a slim chance that we will both survive. However, one of us could sacrifice his life in a distraction that would almost certainly save the other person.
Am I morally obligated to sacrifice myself to save you? Are you morally obligated to sacrifice yourself to save me?
That is not the same as abortion when a mother has the choice all to herself.
Rahvin writes:
Is a mother morally obligated to sacrifice herself to preserve the life of an unborn child? If so, then you must be placing more moral weight on a fetus than you place on the mother - which opens a number of other moral consequences as related to miscarriages, such as a pregnant woman becoming guilty of homicide if she has a miscarriage due to smoking, drinking, heavy exercise, or even just not staying in bed the entire time to make sure she can't fall.
If not, then you must support abortion in the case of a threat to the life of the mother.
Any other position is logically inconsistent. Which position do you take?
First of all a mother choosing to smoke or drink ect. is not a intentional act to destroy her fetus. It may or may not happen and one cannot place absolute belief in studies such as what occurs when a pregnant women drinks or smokes.
The question of whether a mother is morally obligated to sacrifice herself to preseve her fetus is difficult. What information does the mother have and how valid is it in re her health and the life of her child?
If you and your child were confronted by an armed violent criminal who told you one of must die from his or her hands, You would have to make the choice.
I would choose to allow my child to live.

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Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 105 of 327 (649796)
01-25-2012 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by hooah212002
01-23-2012 8:37 PM


Re: Conceptuses
hooah212002 writes:
So an unborn foetus that is 18 weeks old is just as valuable as the woman who is hosting this foetus?
If in fact the fetus has human life how is it different than the woman hosting the fetus? So the answer is yes.
shadow writes:
It is quite a different situation from having a miscarriage to making the intentional decision to terminate a life no matter in what stage that life may be.
hooah writes:
And yet, you've failed to actually provide any evidence or even reason for this other than your personal testimony.
It seems pretty clear that there is quite a difference from a woman having a miscarriage and a woman having an abortion. Do you disagree? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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