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Author Topic:   The Irrefutable Public Health Care Thread
Rahvin
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Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


(1)
Message 4 of 314 (649583)
01-24-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
01-24-2012 1:29 PM


Re: All I know
Would public health care work for me?
The point of publicly-funded healthcare is that funding is taxed according to ability to pay in a fair and sustainable manner (ie, a progressive tax rate such that the very poor may pay nothing and the very wealthy will pay a lot), but services are rendered according to medical necessity.
Right now, medical services are provided based on ability to pay...and the sick usually lose that ability very quickly.
Under any normal universal healthcare option (Britain, Canada, Germany, etc) you would be covered. In many nations this includes no copays for any office visits or tests, though sometimes there is a copay for medication (usually substantially less than what we pay in the US). There would never be a contract negotiation on healthcare. Even if you lost your job, you would be covered. If you changed your job, you wouldn't need to worry about a 30-day or 6-month or even 1-year wait before you qualify for coverage from the new employer. If you took a job as an independent contractor, you wouldn't need to worry about purchasing your own coverage. You'd never need to worry about finding affordable coverage for your pre-existing condition, ever.
There really are no effective arguments against public healthcare - it's actually rather silly that we don't have it.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 01-24-2012 1:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 16 of 314 (649607)
01-24-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by saab93f
01-24-2012 3:09 PM


I live in Finland. From my ~5000 Eur monthly wage I pay 29 percent tax and them some 6 percent for unemployment coverage etc.
If I combined my monthly health costs with my tax rate, I believe I would be paying more than you do.
My health insurance premiums (my share only, not what my employer pays, and not including any copays or deductables) takes up roughly 14% of my income. My combined Federal and State tax rate is roughly 25%. So I pay about 39% of my monthly income in taxes and health insurance premiums. Not to mention my absurdly high copays (they doubled the cost of generics on me this year, and the name brands went up too...).

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by saab93f, posted 01-24-2012 3:09 PM saab93f has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 54 of 314 (649740)
01-25-2012 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
01-25-2012 11:53 AM


I'm claiming Poe here.
It's a pretty damned good Poe though, isn't it? Had me triple-checking who wrote the posts.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2012 11:53 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by dronestar, posted 01-25-2012 12:11 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 86 of 314 (649789)
01-25-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by onifre
01-25-2012 2:18 PM


Re: It's not the calories or the activity
Lets not forget weak DNA and, with the case of Magic, it goes back to unhealthy living. He got HIV from having unprotected sex with a hooker, while he was MARRIED. Tisk tisk. It's natures cure to wreckless sexual activity.
I know you're joking, onifre, this one just hits really close to home. So I'll just say "fuck you" to anyone who actually thinks anyone deserves HIV/AIDS for any reason whatsoever, "reckless behavior" or otherwise.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by onifre, posted 01-25-2012 2:18 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by onifre, posted 01-25-2012 2:54 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 217 of 314 (650943)
02-03-2012 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by onifre
02-03-2012 2:45 PM


Re: Parody Logic
You can age and be healthy at the same time.
...not really. Health inevitably declines with age. A healthy lifestyle can delay the inevitable, but entropy always wins in the end. Exercise all you want, eat only a perfect diet, cut out everything bad for your health, and you'll still eventually require medical care as your body starts to wear out.
A healthy lifestyle reduces risk factors, but it does not eliminate them. A person who exercises properly and regularly and eats right will be less likely to get sick or injured, but I recall a certain Tour de France winner who still got cancer.
I once knew a girl who, as a child, was scratched by a neighbor's car. She got an infection, which led to a fever, which was high and prolonged enough to cause minor brain damage. While she was fortunate enough to retain her full cognitive ability, she suffered from epilepsy, with constant grand mal seizures until she received proper medication. Even with medication, she would still suffer multiple petite and grand mal seizures every month. She exercised. She tried multiple diets as directed by her doctors, ranging from full-on Atkins (before it was called Atkins, high-protein zero-carb) to vegetarian. Her epilepsy persisted. A healthy lifestyle did nothing for her.
I know personally several people with a range of illnesses today, ranging from general anxiety disorders to bipolar disorder to HIV and one with a terminal neuro-muscular disorder whose name I cannot recall. Healthy lifestyles did nothing to prevent these illnesses. One was a genetic disorder from birth (he's been confined to a wheeelchair since childhood and can barely eat on his own today, and it's doubtful he'll live past 30 as his entire muscular system continues to atrophy and he eventually stops breathing).
My late grandfather had cancer, twice, despite living a very healthy lifestyle.
My other grandfather always got plenty of exercise - so much so that now he has artificial knees and hips.
I could keep going. A healthy lifestyle only reduces health risk, it does not eliminate it. Universal healthcare is mandatory, regardless of the diet and exercise of the population.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by onifre, posted 02-03-2012 2:45 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by onifre, posted 02-19-2012 11:03 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
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