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Author Topic:   When does human life begin?
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 106 of 327 (649797)
01-25-2012 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by nwr
01-23-2012 10:03 PM


nwr writes:
No. And I'll thank you not to make such insinuations.
The OP only asked about when life begins. It did not ask about terminating life. I responded only to what was asked. And you should have responded to only what I wrote.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Do I understand that your postion is that human life begins over the first few years after birth?

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 Message 43 by nwr, posted 01-23-2012 10:03 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by nwr, posted 01-25-2012 5:16 PM shadow71 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 107 of 327 (649798)
01-25-2012 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by shadow71
01-25-2012 3:16 PM


Re: Conceptuses
Typically, the accepted response to a "question" is an "answer", not another question.
If in fact the fetus has human life
We (you) have yet to determine when this fetus gets this nebulous thing called "life", hence the thread.
It seems pretty clear that there is quite a difference from a woman having a miscarriage and a woman having an abortion. Do you disagree?
Yes, I do. One is murder, the other is negligent homicide. If I "accidentally" kill you, do I get off scott free?

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 108 of 327 (649799)
01-25-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Straggler
01-25-2012 12:54 PM


my zygote is a tumor
Straggler writes:
So what exactly is your point?
You straggled into a established conversation between myself and Perdition. You sniped at a out of context comment I made in regards to the definition of life.
I made my point. In my opinion a human life begins when a woman becomes pregnant and the baby develops a brain.
Straggler writes:
That a zygote qualifies as a human life because it is capable of cellular reproduction? The same could be said of a cancerous growth.
Oh so you equate a human zygote with a cancerous growth? A human zygote has the propensity to yes, develop into a human. A cancer has the propensity to develop into a tumor.
Are you saying that aborting a zygote is the same as excising a tumor? I guess if you feel that way you would not have a problem cutting your penis off. I mean after all it is but so much tissue. Oh whats that you say? It happens to be using your circulatory system and central nervous system? Well now maybe we will look at those little bits of naughty bits in a new way eh? Perhaps it is comes down to what value humans assign to our reproductive tissues eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 12:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 109 of 327 (649801)
01-25-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by New Cat's Eye
01-24-2012 10:15 AM


catholic scientist writes:
Well, there isn't. Its gradual. You're asking; at what point in the following picture does black become white:
Would you agree that at some point human life begins, even if, as you say its gradual?
Saying it is gradual necessarily admits that at some time it begins. Or am I missing something?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-24-2012 10:15 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(3)
Message 110 of 327 (649802)
01-25-2012 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by shadow71
01-25-2012 3:16 PM


Re: Conceptuses
It seems pretty clear that there is quite a difference from a woman having a miscarriage and a woman having an abortion. Do you disagree?
I disagree, because there is an uneven application of moral worth in each case.
If a woman takes the Morning After pill, which prevents the implantation of a fertilized zygote on the uterine wall, effectively causing a miscarriage, most Pro-Lifers (basically anyone who believes that moral considerations for procreation begin at conception, like you) beleive that, essencially, a murder has occurred. A motehr has taken an active role in ending the life of her unborn child, and you are saddened and outraged.
If a woman miscarries without knowing, a perfectly natural version of teh above events where the only difference is intent and a pill, you are not saddened, and not outraged.
Your moral consideration is for the act of the woman, which is different in each case, and not for the loss of the zygote, which is the same in both cases.
Let's transplant the issue to adults. If someone kills my grandfather, I am sad for his loss, and the killer has committed a crime.
If my grandfather dies of natural causes, there is no crime...but I am still sad for his loss.
If you really considered zygotes to be persons, worthy of moral consideration on the same level as the mother, then it wouldn't matter whether the miscarriage was natural or induced - you should be sad either way.
You were sad when you lost your unborn daughter just 8 weeks before she was due to be born. Were you sad for the children you have lost by natural means during the first few weeks of pregnancy? Are you sad about them now, knowing that 60% of all pregnancies end this way without the mother's knowledge, to the same degree that you are sad about your unborn daughter? Does the knowledge that, when your wife has her period, on some months the discharge contains a fertilized zygote, which you claim you consider a child, actually make you just as sad as when your wife had her much later miscarriage? If "human life" begins at conception, then both the 4-celled zygote and the almost-born daughter were children deserving equal emotional attachment, equal protection, and equal sadness for their deaths.
I don't think you actually care as much about a zygote as you do about a fetus 8 weeks from being born. I don't think you cry for their loss as you cried for the loss of your daughter 8 weeks before she was born.
And that being the case, you agree that the moral weight of a zygote is less than a fetus in the late third trimester; you agree that the moral weight of an unborn child is acquired incrementally as it develops and becomes closer to becoming what you would feel is a person.
And that means that your actual application of moral weight is inconsistent with your beliefs on abortion. What you're feeling right now is cognitive dissonance as you attempt to avoid the fact that you are holding mutually contradictory beliefs simultaneously.
I think you only care about the action of the mother, who you see as a baby-killer if she chooses to have an abortion.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 3:16 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 327 (649803)
01-25-2012 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by shadow71
01-25-2012 3:36 PM


Would you agree that at some point human life begins, even if, as you say its gradual?
Saying it is gradual necessarily admits that at some time it begins. Or am I missing something?
If its gradual then there is no "point".
It begins, but gradually, ergo there's no "point" where it begins.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 112 of 327 (649805)
01-25-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Rahvin
01-25-2012 3:38 PM


Re: Conceptuses
Very well said Rahvin, your articulated that in a cogent graceful way.
And I who often grasp for a way to understand appreciate the clarity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Rahvin, posted 01-25-2012 3:38 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 113 of 327 (649806)
01-25-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by hooah212002
01-24-2012 10:06 PM


hooah writes:
As would most anyone. However, we aren't talking about children, are we? We are talking about clumps of cells that could potentially turn into children..... But this is the sort of rhetoric that is to be expected from the anti-choice camp: "you're killing children!". Tug on the heart strings and make the other side out to be kid-killing monsters.....
the OP is about when human life begins. As an aside, that perhaps I should not have gotten into, is the abortion issue.
I am not prochoice because I believe once life begins it should not be destroyed.
I can see Percy getting upset about being off thread.
So all I wanted were whether there are medical, scientific facts or opinions as to when human life begins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by hooah212002, posted 01-24-2012 10:06 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 114 of 327 (649808)
01-25-2012 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by shadow71
01-25-2012 3:51 PM


As an aside, that perhaps I should not have gotten into, is the abortion issue.
Really? Is that why you mentioned it numerous times in your OP?
I can see Percy getting upset about being off thread.
It's not off topic because it was in your OP.
So all I wanted were whether there are medical, scientific facts or opinions as to when human life begins.
That has been answered. Whether your beliefs allowed them to be satisfactory answers is another question entirely. If this was merely a topic to ask whether or not there is scientific consensus as to when life begins, you would have been better off doing so in the "quick questions, short answers, no debate" thread. However, it seems that you've no answers to tough questions (which is fine, but a non-answer is better than a dodge answer which is all you've given).
If you'd rather not address your anti-choice position, I would suggest you rewrite your OP and make your next post one that says "I do not wish to discuss abortion in this thread".

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 115 of 327 (649811)
01-25-2012 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by shadow71
01-25-2012 3:51 PM


HUMAN BEING
We must decide what is a human first.
Is a human zygote a human? If you answer yes then human life begins at the moment the zygote forms.
If you answer no. Then we get into the Black---->White scenario of when is it Human.
Science has no answer. It can identify a human zygote and whether or not it is alive.
But it can not identify at what point we call it a human being.
Which is the salient point.
Some say it is the moment the fetus becomes a self aware being.
Hence the word BEING.
HUMAN BEING. Thats my take on it.

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Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 116 of 327 (649812)
01-25-2012 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by 1.61803
01-25-2012 4:20 PM


Re: HUMAN BEING
Some say it is the moment the fetus becomes a self aware being.
I would say this is the quality that most people use, whether they're aware of it or not. The people who disagree with this in the case of a fetus are, IMHO, succumbing to anthropomorphization and/or sexism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2012 4:20 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 117 of 327 (649813)
01-25-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Perdition
01-25-2012 4:24 PM


Re: HUMAN BEING
I would say this is the quality that most people use, whether they're aware of it or not. The people who disagree with this in the case of a fetus are, IMHO, succumbing to anthropomorphization and/or sexism.
It took me sometime to come to this conclusion. But it is because of discussions like this with non-apologist we can delve into other points of view that would otherwise be hereitical in other circles. It is ultimately a personal journey we all must make or be abandoned on the shores of ignorance.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 118 of 327 (649815)
01-25-2012 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Rahvin
01-25-2012 3:38 PM


Re: Conceptuses
shadow writes:
It seems pretty clear that there is quite a difference from a woman having a miscarriage and a woman having an abortion. Do you disagree?
Rahvin writes:
I disagree, because there is an uneven application of moral worth in each case. If a woman takes the Morning After pill, which prevents the implantation of a fertilized zygote on the uterine wall, effectively causing a miscarriage, most Pro-Lifers (basically anyone who believes that moral considerations for procreation begin at conception, like you) beleive that, essencially, a murder has occurred. A motehr has taken an active role in ending the life of her unborn child, and you are saddened and outraged. If a woman miscarries without knowing, a perfectly natural version of teh above events where the only difference is intent and a pill, you are not saddened, and not outraged. Your moral consideration is for the act of the woman, which is different in each case, and not for the loss of the zygote, which is the same in both cases.
I am truly saddened when a woman miscarries, losing the baby she loved and wanted to abring into the world. But I am more saddened when a woman decides that she does not want the human life and intentionally ends that life.
Rahvin writes:
You were sad when you lost your unborn daughter just 8 weeks before she was due to be born. Were you sad for the children you have lost by natural means during the first few weeks of pregnancy? Are you sad about them now, knowing that 60% of all pregnancies end this way without the mother's knowledge, to the same degree that you are sad about your unborn daughter? Does the knowledge that, when your wife has her period, on some months the discharge contains a fertilized zygote, which you claim you consider a child, actually make you just as sad as when your wife had her much later miscarriage? If "human life" begins at conception, then both the 4-celled zygote and the almost-born daughter were children deserving equal emotional attachment, equal protection, and equal sadness for their deaths.
I am saddened when I know any life ends. If in fact life has begun I mourn the loss of that life. For me life has begun when the Lord says it has begun. This OP is as to whether medicince-science know when life begins.
Rhavin writes:
I don't think you actually care as much about a zygote as you do about a fetus 8 weeks from being born. I don't think you cry for their loss as you cried for the loss of your daughter 8 weeks before she was born. And that being the case, you agree that the moral weight of a zygote is less than a fetus in the late third trimester; you agree that the moral weight of an unborn child is acquired incrementally as it develops and becomes closer to becoming what you would feel is a person.
If we lost a child at 1 minute or 8 months I am saddened by that loss. By your logic miscarriages at 1 month are not as bad as miscarriages at 8 months. I don't feel that way. You are attributinig your moral opinions to me. You can't do that because you do not know me and what I think and feel.

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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 119 of 327 (649816)
01-25-2012 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by 1.61803
01-25-2012 3:34 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
Numbers writes:
I made my point. In my opinion a human life begins when a woman becomes pregnant and the baby develops a brain.
Firstly - If brains are your criteria why on Earth are you banging on about cellular reproduction as the defining criteria for life?
Secondly - So when exactly is that? How do we identify this point where a brain has been "developed"....?
Straggler writes:
That a zygote qualifies as a human life because it is capable of cellular reproduction? The same could be said of a cancerous growth.
Numbers writes:
Oh so you equate a human zygote with a cancerous growth?
Dude you are the one ranting on about life being defined by the capability to replicate cells. Not me.
Numbers writes:
Are you saying that aborting a zygote is the same as excising a tumor?
The same? In what sense? Morally? Physically? In terms of personhood?
Numbers writes:
I guess if you feel that way you would not have a problem cutting your penis off. I mean after all it is but so much tissue. Oh whats that you say? It happens to be using your circulatory system and central nervous system? Well now maybe we will look at those little bits of naughty bits in a new way eh? Perhaps it is comes down to what value humans assign to our reproductive tissues eh?
Are you equating dicks with zygotes now? If I wanted my dick removed I think, that as a person, that would be my personal right. Likewise if a woman wants a zygote removed I think that is her personal right.
What do you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2012 3:34 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2012 4:54 PM Straggler has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 120 of 327 (649818)
01-25-2012 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Straggler
01-25-2012 4:50 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
What do you think?
I think that is the bees knees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 4:50 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 5:34 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
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