Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   When does human life begin?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 327 (649819)
01-25-2012 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by shadow71
01-25-2012 4:39 PM


Re: Conceptuses
The question is whether what you feel should have any bearing on the issues of when life begins or whether or not someone other than you has an abortion?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 4:39 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(4)
Message 122 of 327 (649820)
01-25-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by shadow71
01-25-2012 4:39 PM


Re: Conceptuses
I am truly saddened when a woman miscarries...
Did you even read the text you quoted? Let me rehash the important bit:
quote:
If a woman miscarries without knowing
How can you be "saddened" if no one knows she miscarried? Hell, just because she takes a morning after pill doesn't even mean there was something "there" the morning after.
For me life has begun when the Lord says it has begun.
The moment you bring your deity/belief/religion into the discussion is the moment you remove yourself from dictating what other people do. You are free to have an opinion on the matter and use your belief to base that opinion, but that opinion holds no weight with anyone other than yourself or perhaps others who hold that same belief. Oddly enough, different people, believing in the same "lord" as you, reading from the same book, will say life begins at a different time than you do. What does that say about the validity of this "lord" of yours in determining when life begins?

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 4:39 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 7:14 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 123 of 327 (649823)
01-25-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by shadow71
01-25-2012 3:22 PM


shadow71 writes:
Do I understand that your postion is that human life begins over the first few years after birth?
No, you evidently don't.
I think I was clear enough. Moral agency develops over the first few year. "Human life" is too broad a term to be definable or to be useful.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 3:22 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 7:20 PM nwr has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 124 of 327 (649825)
01-25-2012 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by 1.61803
01-25-2012 4:54 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
Straggler writes:
What do you think?
Numbers writes:
I think that is the bees knees.
Profound.
The thread asks - "When does human life begin?"
It seems that your thinking on this issue is somewhat conflicted and very definitely confused. It has (according to you) something to do with cellular reproduction. And (according to you) something to do with brain development.
But quite what, or how these things are related or reconciled, is anybodies guess. Including, I suspect, your own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2012 4:54 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2012 6:02 PM Straggler has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 125 of 327 (649827)
01-25-2012 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Straggler
01-25-2012 5:34 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
Straggler, If you go back to where my post to Perdition began, and follow to where Perdition in a aside stated that life reproducing can not be the only criteria, using the sperm and egg as a example of them being both "alive". And" reproduce is all they essentially do." I then retorted that yes they are alive, however they are only alive long enough to accomplish a mission.
But they're existence is contingent on the host organism.
I then went on to defend my use one of the criteria of life as (reproduction) as that definition is used in biology,
This banter went back and forth until you chimed in that using reproduction in defining life is" silly". I then responded with "what taxa of organisms do not reproduce?" To which you responded with" infertile males and prepubesants," who are quite certainly alive.
To which I responded with citing my use of the term reproducing in describing "Life" and pointing out that infertile organisms still reproduce they're cells. To which you conflate cellular reproduction with a cancer and zygote. To which I conflate a tumor with zygote and a zygote with a penis.
All the while the main point was made at the beginning of answering Perdition. That imo human life begins with when a woman becomes pregnant and the brain develops. So who again is confused? What in that is irreconcilable? "Me thinks thou dost protest to much."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 5:34 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 6:14 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 126 of 327 (649829)
01-25-2012 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by 1.61803
01-25-2012 6:02 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
So - In summary - You define life as that which can reproduce cells but you define human life specifically as that which has a sufficiently developed brain?
Numbers writes:
That imo human life begins with when a woman becomes pregnant and the brain develops. So who again is confused? What in that is irreconcilable? "Me thinks thou dost protest to much."
I'm only protesting at the conflicting ambiguities of your different criteria.
How do we identify this stage where a brain has been sufficiently "developed" for you to consider the cells in question as qualifying for human life?
And if brain development is your criteria why are you defining anything at all remotely relevant to this thread in terms of ability to reproduce cells?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2012 6:02 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2012 6:34 PM Straggler has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 127 of 327 (649830)
01-25-2012 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Straggler
01-25-2012 6:14 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
I think, not sure. You are hung up on the initial mention of one of the criteria used to describe and define life as: "The ability to reproduce." This dragged the thread off topic. My bad. Perdition and I were content to banter the point.
It was where Straggler interjected, that Straggler misconstrued the previous discourse.
Which is fine as long as you realize I was not defining the inception of human life with it's ability to reproduce.
How do we identify this stage where a brain has been sufficiently "developed" for you to consider the cells in question as qualifying for human life?
The 24-28th week.
And if brain development is your criteria why are you defining anything at all remotely relevant to this thread in terms of ability to reproduce cells?
Because you started fucking with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 6:14 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 6:55 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 128 of 327 (649832)
01-25-2012 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by 1.61803
01-25-2012 6:34 PM


Re: my zygote is a tumor
Numbers writes:
Which is fine as long as you realize I was not defining the inception of human life with it's ability to reproduce.
Then what are you defining in terms of the ability to reproduce and what possible relevance does it have to this thread?
Straggler writes:
How do we identify this stage where a brain has been sufficiently "developed" for you to consider the cells in question as qualifying for human life?
Numbers writes:
The 24-28th week.
OK. But that isn't "how". That is "when". What is it about the brain of a 24-28 week old foetus that qualifies it for human life?
I'm not even disagreeing with you here. Just trying to clarify what the hell it is you are actually getting at.
Straggler writes:
And if brain development is your criteria why are you defining anything at all remotely relevant to this thread in terms of ability to reproduce cells?
Numbers writes:
Because you started fucking with me.
I started "fucking with" you because you were making statements about the ability to reprodeuce cells that were either idiotic or irrelevant in this thread context.
You have plumped for irrelevant which is probably the more justfiable of the two options.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2012 6:34 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by 1.61803, posted 01-26-2012 9:56 AM Straggler has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 129 of 327 (649833)
01-25-2012 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by hooah212002
01-25-2012 5:04 PM


Re: Conceptuses
hooah writes:
How can you be "saddened" if no one knows she miscarried? Hell, just because she takes a morning after pill doesn't even mean there was something "there" the morning after.
What saddens me is the intent of the woman who took the morning pill in full knowledge that it will abort the baby developing in her womb. Why would she take the pill if she doesn't want to abort?
hooah writes:
The moment you bring your deity/belief/religion into the discussion is the moment you remove yourself from dictating what other people do. You are free to have an opinion on the matter and use your belief to base that opinion, but that opinion holds no weight with anyone other than yourself or perhaps others who hold that same belief. Oddly enough, different people, believing in the same "lord" as you, reading from the same book, will say life begins at a different time than you do. What does that say about the validity of this "lord" of yours in determining when life begins?
Did you ever consider that your opinions hold no weight with anyone other than the people that hold your opinion. Pretty lame analogy if you ask me. What your are saying is that my opinions if based on my beliefs are inferior to your opinions that are based upon your beliefs.
Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by hooah212002, posted 01-25-2012 5:04 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 7:21 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 133 by hooah212002, posted 01-25-2012 7:25 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 130 of 327 (649834)
01-25-2012 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by nwr
01-25-2012 5:16 PM


nwr writes:
I think I was clear enough. Moral agency develops over the first few year. "Human life" is too broad a term to be definable or to be useful.
Could you possibly define "moral agency" for me. I am of the opinion that human life at some point begins. Do you deny that propostion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by nwr, posted 01-25-2012 5:16 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 7:25 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 136 by nwr, posted 01-25-2012 10:09 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 131 of 327 (649835)
01-25-2012 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by shadow71
01-25-2012 7:14 PM


Re: Conceptuses
Your entire position in this thread depends upon there being a "point" when human life begins. But you still cannot tell us when exactly it is that you think it is that human "life begins"......
Shad writes:
Yes I believe in the existence of a soul. I think it is implanted in a human being when life begins.
How are you identifying the beginning of life on which your position depends?
If I look at 2 egg-sperm combinations, one of which meets your criteria of a life and one of which doesn't, how can I tell which is which?
Shad writes:
What saddens me is the intent of the woman who took the morning pill in full knowledge that it will abort the baby developing in her womb.
Is a zygote a "baby".....? If a "baby" is a human being with personhood then you are making a lot of evidentially unjustifaible assumptions.
Shad writes:
Did you ever consider that your opinions hold no weight with anyone other than the people that hold your opinion.
OK. If nobodies un-evidenced opinion alone should carry any weight then on what criteria do we base the judgements related to abortion upon?
Are there any criteria that we can agree upon to attribute personhood to something and if so what are they?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 7:14 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 132 of 327 (649836)
01-25-2012 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by shadow71
01-25-2012 7:20 PM


"human life at some point begins"
Shad writes:
I am of the opinion that human life at some point begins.
When is that point? Be specific. Your entire position depends upon this "point" existing.
Shad writes:
Do you deny that propostion?
Yes. There is no 'point'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 7:20 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(3)
Message 133 of 327 (649837)
01-25-2012 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by shadow71
01-25-2012 7:14 PM


Re: Conceptuses
What saddens me is the intent of the woman who took the morning pill in full knowledge that it will abort the baby developing in her womb.
There is no "baby developing in her womb" the morning after sex. You do know what a baby is, don't you? I'm glad you aren't addressing the meat of anything I reply to you, but rather snippets of shit that aren't furthering the discussion.
Why would she take the pill if she doesn't want to abort?
REALLY???? Do you even know what the morning after pill is? How can you expect to have this discussion on an adult level if you don't even understand that the morning after pill is not an abortion?????
What your are saying is that my opinions if based on my beliefs are inferior to your opinions that are based upon your beliefs.
I don't have "beliefs". I have facts I accept based on evidence, reason and the scienctific method. You, on the other hand, have beliefs and those beliefs are archaic and based on ancient tribal myths, holding no value in today's society.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 7:14 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 134 of 327 (649838)
01-25-2012 7:35 PM


Topic Reminder
Abortion is not the topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Just being real, posted 01-26-2012 12:31 AM Admin has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 135 of 327 (649845)
01-25-2012 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by shadow71
01-25-2012 4:39 PM


Re: Conceptuses
For me life has begun when the Lord says it has begun.
But He seems a little vague on that subject. One place that gets close to an opinion is Exodus 21:22 : "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."
That sure appears to treat the loss of a fetus as a purely civil matter, "fixed" by a monetary payment, and not as a manslaughter or infanticide. If you know of a place in the Bible where this Lord fellow says plainly when life begins, tell me: I'd be interested to see it. I don't think it's in there.
The Catholic Church, at least, seems to regard attempts to prevent sperm and ova from meeting up with each other as approximately same level of immorality as taking Plan B or having an abortion at eight weeks. What does that say about what they call "when life begins?" I say it's incomprehensible.
Edited by Coragyps, : fix tag

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 4:39 PM shadow71 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2012 3:40 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024