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Author Topic:   The Irrefutable Public Health Care Thread
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 106 of 314 (649875)
01-26-2012 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by onifre
01-26-2012 2:19 AM


Insurance IS Communism!!!
Oni writes:
Come on, I'm talking natural selection not forced selection.
If natural selection is your goal why interfere medically at all? Why not just let nature take it's course in ALL cases?
Oni writes:
Why should those people be allowed to increase MY health plan when I'm fit, healthy, eat low carb, and exercies often if not all the time, mostly?
You are a stoner, a drinker, an ex-nicotine addict, substance abuser and one-time-fatty. Your job involves hanging out in unhealthy environments and you freely admit to past and present sexual promiscuity. Why should any genuinely fit, healthy and clean living individual contribute anything whatsoever to cover the health risks of your present lifestyle or the delayed health effects of any of your past misdemeanours?
In fact isn’t the whole idea of insurance a socialist plot anyway? I mean collectively contributing to a pool of money on the basis that a few of you might need it!!! It’s communism!! Why not take some personal responsibility by A) Making sure you don’t get sick B) If you are so irresponsible as to get sick just pay the fucking bill!!! Why should anyone ever pay anything for treatment they haven’t actually received?
The whole idea of insurance is a communist plot isn’t it?
Straggler writes:
Have you personally ever required any medical attention for anything ever?
Oni writes:
Yes. And I paid for it.
Did you? Really? Or when you say "paid" do you mean that you leeched from the collective insurance pool because you were too irresponsible to take care of yourself?
Communist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 2:19 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 9:22 AM Straggler has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 107 of 314 (649881)
01-26-2012 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Straggler
01-26-2012 8:13 AM


Re: Insurance IS Communism!!!
If natural selection is your goal why interfere medically at all? Why not just let nature take it's course in ALL cases?
I think you're starting to get it. It's simple, right?
No insurance, no healthcare - free or otherwise (except a select few who are very fit, and of course the extremely rich) and we all fend for ourselves.
After a few people start dying you'll starts to see people put down that burger or fried chicken and get their ass to a gym!
You are a stoner, a drinker, an ex-nicotine addict, substance abuser and one-time-fatty.
You can't prove that.
Why should any genuinely fit, healthy and clean living individual contribute anything whatsoever to cover the health risks of your present lifestyle or the delayed health effects of any of your past misdemeanours?
Well of course the healthy, fit individuals of our society who actually CARE about their health, and not SUCK ON THE GOVERNMENT TEET, should NOT concern themselves at all with the waste of space bellying up at Taco Bell at 10am. It's not fair to them to have to carry the rest of the fatty fat fats.
I'll handle my own healthcare thank you very much. At the level I'm working out I'd kick diabetes right in the dick. 200 sit-ups, 200 pull-ups DAILY... diabetes can't hang with that.
I mean collectively contributing to a pool of money on the basis that a few of you might need it!!! It’s communism!!
You'll have to forgive me but that just sounds like the ramblings of a lunatic.
Why not take some personal responsibility by A) Making sure you don’t get sick B) If you are so irresponsible as to get sick just pay the fucking bill!!! Why should anyone ever pay anything for treatment they haven’t actually received?
It's so simple, eat right (low carb, low cal) exercise DAILY, and I haven't said this yet but it's probably as important as sit-ups, you gotta take vitamins. Lots of them.
If you do that, trust me, nothing will ever happen to you that would require medical attention. The reason so many people need insurance is because they risk their life every fucking day eating food that's not fit for humans. And they feed their kids the same shit!
Do you honestly think it's fair for people to live that kind of lifestyle and then DEMAND free healthcare? If people want to kill themselves eating fast food and being couch potatoes then let them die.
Did you? Really? Or when you say "paid" do you mean that you leeched from the collective insurance pool because you were too irresponsible to take care of yourself?
I see what you did there trickster. I paid it. Well sort of. The bill went to collections and I filled for bankruptcy.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Straggler, posted 01-26-2012 8:13 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Straggler, posted 01-26-2012 3:49 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 108 of 314 (649884)
01-26-2012 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Wounded King
01-26-2012 5:16 AM


Re: I'm Jim Fixx and I'm dead now.
Does this mean we can look forward to your upcoming bid for the World Inter-Gender Wrestling championship belt?
I'm in good enough shape these days to probably win that thing, maybe.
-Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Wounded King, posted 01-26-2012 5:16 AM Wounded King has seen this message but not replied

  
AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 109 of 314 (649890)
01-26-2012 10:06 AM


Topic concerns
I think that onifre is technically on topic, but I can't help but feel it goes against the spirit of the topic in some sense. I get the feeling Dr. A wanted to talk about universal public health, rather than a very limited conditional public health.
I think the possible virtues of a strict and conditional health care system have been expressed fully, and rebuttals to that position have been given. It might be time to wind that line of argument down so that it doesn't become the bulk of this thread.
I think there is an associated, but interesting line of reasoning that onifre hints at, and that might be ok to discuss. The potential moral hazard that might follow universal healthcare of any persuasion, but especially most public models that have ever been seriously proposed.

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 110 of 314 (649891)
01-26-2012 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Straggler
01-25-2012 7:48 PM


How about free health care for just mental disease?
Strag writes:
But I am both a conspiracy theorist . . .
Well, my tinfoil-hat isn't exactly worn for the warmth it provides . . .
1. Oni is AGAINST socialized health-care? Oni? Oh c'mon, really? Oni and I are (were) the big liberal-socialists on this forum.
2. Where's the humor? "Oni's" posts are way, way too dark, too serious. His theme "Death to fatties" is sociopathic. The Oni that I know is not a sociopath.
3. Where's the in-between friendly banter. I noted both your and my inside jokes were met with stone-faced replies. It's as if he doesn't remember us.
4. Writing styles. Can't put my finger on it, but his writing style is different. If Oni's name wasn't attached I could imagine his posts were from several other forum participants.
5. Harsh/mean spirited. Even in Oni's most heated moments with Rhain, Oni had jocularity.
6. Oni Explains his current on-stage material is "Kaufman-like." What-the? Quite a radical departure from his life-long stage act.
7. It's a radical departure for Oni to post disingenuously without declaring devil's advocate.
8. As you wrote Oni is "a stoner, a drinker, an ex-nicotine addict, substance abuser and one-time-fatty. Your job involves hanging out in unhealthy environments and you freely admit to past and present sexual promiscuity." This off-the-scale hypocrisy could only be "Kaufman-like."
9. Have you noticed that Oni's name has been online all during the day. Since when does he have so much time on-line during the whole day?
10. "I'll handle my own healthcare thank you very much. At the level I'm working out I'd kick diabetes right in the dick." The real Oni is way more creative/imaginative that that.
I maintain the Oni on this thread is an imposter (or his current workout involves way too many mind-altering steroids).
Back on-topic . . .
Rahvin writes:
There really are no effective arguments against public healthcare - it's actually rather silly that we don't have it.
Well, actually that people continue to die or go broke from inadequate healthcare in America, it is rather more tragic than just silly. For a first world industrial nation, our infant death mortality is an embarrassment.
Edited by dronester, : added: mind-altering steroids

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Straggler, posted 01-25-2012 7:48 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 11:14 AM dronestar has not replied
 Message 148 by Straggler, posted 01-27-2012 3:08 PM dronestar has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 111 of 314 (649896)
01-26-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by dronestar
01-26-2012 10:11 AM


Staying on topic
1. Oni is AGAINST socialized health-care? Oni? Oh c'mon, really? Oni and I are (were) the big liberal-socialists on this forum.
I am NOT against socialized healthcare. I'm all for it. I just have a criteria as to who should be allowed to have it.
Isn't that fair?
Should people eating horrible food that is CLEARLY doing serious damage to their health, while not doing a single exercise all day except walking to the fridge, be allowed to partake in a free healthcare system with other, better fit people who place enough value on their health to take care of themselves with good dieting and exercise?
His theme "Death to fatties" is sociopathic.
Death to fatties is not my theme, it's the theme of those not eating garden salads for lunch and ordering BK delivery.
BK's delivery service's slogan should be: BK delivers, because hey man, fuck it. We''ll soon have free healthcare.
8. As you wrote Oni is "a stoner, a drinker, an ex-nicotine addict, substance abuser and one-time-fatty.
Enough with the slander. Please.
10. "I'll handle my own healthcare thank you very much. At the level I'm working out I'd kick diabetes right in the dick." The real Oni is way more creative/imaginative that that.
You wouldn't be saying that if you were diabetes.
I maintain the Oni on this thread is an imposter (or his current workout involves way too many mind-altering steroids).
No steriods. 200 sit-ups, 200 pull-ups, 45min of cardio, 45min of weights, an energy drink, a protein shake, 20 vitamins, and 8 hours of sleep.
And the proof that it works? I'm still alive.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by dronestar, posted 01-26-2012 10:11 AM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Taq, posted 01-26-2012 2:08 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 112 of 314 (649898)
01-26-2012 11:29 AM


I can't make this stuff up
Here you go, another example of why this country should have a criteria for who gets free healthcare:
Paula Deen Caught Eating a Cheeseburger
quote:
Last week, TV chef Paula Deen announced that she's been suffering from type 2 diabetes for the past three years. She acknowledged that a person has "to make changes in your life" but apparently, Deen hasn't apparently changed all that much. TMZ posted a photo of Deen woolfing down a cheeseburger on Monday while on a 7-day Caribbean cruise. The 65-year-old chef was hosting her annual Party at Sea vacation for 400 fans. TMZ says Deen also had fries on her plate.
My my, TV star Paula Deen. Burgers, fries, while having type 2 diabetes? Not only bad because of her diabetes, but also bad for being an over weight celebrity. That just ain't right.
Should this person get free healthcare?
- Oni

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Jon, posted 01-26-2012 2:46 PM onifre has replied
 Message 131 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2012 8:29 PM onifre has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 113 of 314 (649911)
01-26-2012 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by onifre
01-26-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Staying on topic
Should people eating horrible food that is CLEARLY doing serious damage to their health, while not doing a single exercise all day except walking to the fridge, be allowed to partake in a free healthcare system with other, better fit people who place enough value on their health to take care of themselves with good dieting and exercise?
Yes, they should receive health care. Health care should be given out based on need for that health care. Giving out health care based on morality based judgements of a patient's behavior just won't work. You will get the same convoluted and unfair system that we currently have with private health insurance where they are continually denying coverage based on liberal readings of the fine print.
Of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It might lower costs by offering monetary incentives for proper diet and exercise, such as "food stamps" for healthy foods and money for gym memberships.
A strong overall program will treat people based on their health care needs while encouraging proper health.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 11:14 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2012 2:23 PM Taq has replied
 Message 116 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 2:36 PM Taq has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 114 of 314 (649916)
01-26-2012 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Taq
01-26-2012 2:08 PM


Re: Staying on topic
Taq writes:
A strong overall program will treat people based on their health care needs while encouraging proper health.
i think that is generally correct, but here in the UK we do get regualr debates about whether a heavy smoker should receive treatment for a smoking related illness if they refuse to stop smoking, or receive a liver transplant if they carry on drinking. Fair and difficult questions.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Taq, posted 01-26-2012 2:08 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Omnivorous, posted 01-26-2012 2:31 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 121 by Taq, posted 01-26-2012 3:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 115 of 314 (649917)
01-26-2012 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Tangle
01-26-2012 2:23 PM


Re: Staying on topic
Tangle writes:
i think that is generally correct, but here in the UK we do get regualr debates about whether a heavy smoker should receive treatment for a smoking related illness if they refuse to stop smoking, or receive a liver transplant if they carry on drinking. Fair and difficult questions.
Protocols at transplant centers in the U.S. will make smokers and drinkers very low priority, if not rule them out entirely.
If there were an excess of donor organs, that might not be so.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 116 of 314 (649919)
01-26-2012 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Taq
01-26-2012 2:08 PM


Re: Staying on topic
Yes, they should receive health care.
Sure, but FREE healthcare was my question.
Of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It might lower costs by offering monetary incentives for proper diet and exercise, such as "food stamps" for healthy foods and money for gym memberships.
I'm not at all opposed to rewarding people for working out and staying away from nasty food as long as there is an equal punishment for those NOT doing it.
Maybe taking away rights to certain foods and force them into a gym membership.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Taq, posted 01-26-2012 2:08 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Taq, posted 01-26-2012 3:18 PM onifre has replied
 Message 120 by Taq, posted 01-26-2012 3:20 PM onifre has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 314 (649921)
01-26-2012 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by onifre
01-26-2012 11:29 AM


Re: I can't make this stuff up
Should this person get free healthcare?
There is no 'should' involved, which implies the morality of the question to be of chief concernwhich it isn't. The issue is about what is best as a society, and as a society, it is best to take care of those in need.
This is because while spending the better part of an afternoon on a dialysis machine, Ms. Deen was so fortunate enough as to come across the cure for cancerand she didn't just read it off the doctor's notebook which he absentmindedly left sit at her chair-side either. And to think, our luck! Only a week ago she was at death's door until the passage of Universal Health Care Reform that made her fat ass eligible for treatment for her diabetes and so prolonged her life to make that astonishing discovery.
Really, though, the number one resource of any nation is its people, young, old, handicapped, and fit. Any nation that wishes to succeed best take care of this resource.
On a side note, I consider Paula Deen to be something of a charlatan who slaps her name on a $2 dowel and sells it for a fortune as a 'southern-style rolling pin'.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 11:29 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 3:31 PM Jon has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 118 of 314 (649923)
01-26-2012 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Omnivorous
01-26-2012 2:31 PM


Re: Staying on topic
Protocols at transplant centers in the U.S. will make smokers and drinkers very low priority, if not rule them out entirely.
As well they should. I didn't even want to get started on the filthy smokers.
Smokers especially are the worst. I mean really, just stop smoking and you won't need a transplant later in life. It's that simple. When you walk by a pack of cigaretes at the market, or gas station, or while in a bar, or at the pharmacy, or in a casino, some movie theaters, arenas, sporting event, stripclub, or mall, just say "NO THANKS. I don't poison my body with addictive chemicals. I live right, eat right, and stay healthy." It's called self control, and people need to start applying it.
That goes for you especially, old guy.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Omnivorous, posted 01-26-2012 2:31 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Uncle Gruber, posted 01-27-2012 7:03 AM onifre has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 119 of 314 (649926)
01-26-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by onifre
01-26-2012 2:36 PM


Re: Staying on topic
Sure, but FREE healthcare was my question.
We are not talking about "free" healthcare. We are talking about socialized health care where it is paid by taxes that the chubbies pay at the same rate as the skinnies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 2:36 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 3:36 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 120 of 314 (649927)
01-26-2012 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by onifre
01-26-2012 2:36 PM


Re: Staying on topic
Maybe taking away rights to certain foods and force them into a gym membership.
Comrade Stalin . . . is that you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by onifre, posted 01-26-2012 2:36 PM onifre has not replied

  
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