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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Supernatural
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 107 (41760)
05-30-2003 12:17 AM


I became a Christian at age 10 58 years ago. I've had scores of unusual answers to prayer which I am positive were supernatural. However I do not expect a non-Christian to accept these as evidence for the supernatural, simply because as pointed out I can't prove to someone else that these were indeed answers to prayer.
Rather, I choose to use such things as fulfilled prophecy. For example, It has been widely prophesied in the Bible both by OT prophets and NT prophets like Jesus himself and John that Israel would be dispersed worldwide and would return in the latter days to be surrounded by enemy armies and prevail to remain a nation of Israelites at a time when the gospel of Jesus would be preached worldwide until he, Jesus, messiah returns. After 19 centuries this is right on track. That's just one of scores of prophecies, a few of which have been mentioned elswhere here in town.

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2003 3:55 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 107 (41871)
05-31-2003 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rrhain
05-31-2003 3:55 AM


quote:
Um, no. The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.
1. They have been on every continent with the exception of possibly Antartica.
2. The longer they are out of their homeland and the longer they are dispersed somewhere, the more the miracle, as normally they would've lost their national and blood identity via integration into the nations.
3. The British government was engrossed in Biblical prophecy?? And the British government had/has such an interest in preaching Biblical fundamentalistic prophecy so as to work to artificially fulfill it? I don't think so.
quote:
Besides, this was all supposed to happen nearly 2000 years ago. Remember, Jesus directly tells people that they will live to see the end. Mark 14:62, Mark 9:1, etc. My favorite is Luke 9:27:
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Most attribute the fulfillment of this to the transfiguring of Christ in the glory of the transiguration when he stood appearing with Moses and Elijah on the mountain. The apostles James and John witnessed this. As for the reference in Mark 14:62, he may have been referring to the nation in general rather than the specific person to whom he was speaking or he may have been referring to the time of the resurrection of the dead which will happen in the last days of the age. In this reference he did not specify that it would happen before their death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2003 3:55 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by zephyr, posted 05-31-2003 10:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 10 by Rrhain, posted 06-04-2003 4:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 107 (650145)
01-28-2012 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rrhain
06-04-2003 4:04 AM


Observable Evidence Of The Supernatural
Rrhain writes:
Um, no. The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.
The timeline of the global dispersal is irrelevant. What is prophetically relevant is that Israel became occupied by Gentile nations, remaining so as a wasteland for over nineteen centuries.
Rrhain writes:
That's not dispersal. That's emigration. The two are not the same.
Call it what you want. They eventually became globally dispersed to the nations, including the then undiscovered West, as so many prophets including OT and Jesus prophesied.
The scientific evidence of the reliability of the Biblical record has become observable.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Rrhain, posted 06-04-2003 4:04 AM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 01-28-2012 12:44 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 4:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 58 of 107 (650177)
01-28-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
01-28-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Phat writes:
I too have been a witness to unexplained phenomenon in my own apartment. I'll not bother to talk about it though...its time to let the scoffers have their world. Once they become victims of human nature unleashed..once the world becomes so competitive that people will fight for position, once the secular humanists find out that logic, reason, and reality dont lead to altruism through human will alone....then and only then will people seek God. They will, sadly, create their own humanist version....I hope they can share what little wealth remains on this planet.
Phat, my friend, like Truthlover admitted, personal evidence doesn't cut it for scientific evidence. I've had, over my 60 plus years as spiritual born Christian, enough personal experience to write a book and to empirically prove to me that the Biblical record is reliable and that the Biblical god, Jehovah exists. I do expect anyone other than myself to apply that as scientific evidence that Jehovah exists.
I must be able to cite physical observable phenomena in order to debate evidence of the supernatural. This I do, knowing full well, that most will go to any length in denying the fact, so as to consider themselves unaccountable to a higher power.
Any objectively honest person cannot deny many fulfilled corroborative, observable fulfilled prophecies cited by me as evidence supportive to the existence of a higher intelligence than we experience on our itty bitty planet in the unsearchably (self explanitory Buzism adjective) immense and unsearchably complex Universe.
Edited by Buzsaw, : eliminate a word for clarity
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 01-28-2012 11:14 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Warthog, posted 01-29-2012 5:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 107 (650179)
01-28-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Tangle
01-28-2012 10:33 AM


Re: Oldie Thread
Tangle writes:
The last post in this thread before you zombied it Buzz, was 2003.
That's right, Tangle. The reason I decided to bump this thead forward is that over the past 9 years I've learned a lot as to what is factual, what is scientifically observable and what is acceptable for effective debate here at EvC.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 01-28-2012 10:33 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 107 (650180)
01-28-2012 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
01-28-2012 4:07 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
crashfrog writes:
Hardly a "wasteland." Actually, it had always been a fertile and productive land over those 19 centuries of the Jews not having stolen it yet.
Crashfrog, your map is a straw-man, showing nothing as evidence that the land, by and large has been a wilderness nomadic herdsman's and fisherman's wasteland relative to what it was before the dispersion and after the return of the Jews as owners and occupants.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 4:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 4:37 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 107 (650195)
01-28-2012 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by crashfrog
01-28-2012 4:37 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
crashfrog writes:
Hrm, nope, making some of the text orange doesn't seem to have any effect on its veracity. It's equally false in all colors.
Crashfrog, please say some substantive thing for me to respond to. Yours is a classic troll message, slowing the progress of the thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 4:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 01-28-2012 6:10 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 6:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 107 (650206)
01-28-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Tangle
01-28-2012 6:10 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
haha, isn't 8 or 9 years fast enough for you Buz?
quote:
Yours is a classic troll message, slowing the progress of the thread.
Make that: Yours is a classic troll message slowing the progress of the archived thread which has been bumped forward.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 01-28-2012 6:10 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 107 (650236)
01-29-2012 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Warthog
01-29-2012 5:51 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Warthog writes:
I have to ask...
What observable fulfilled prophecies cited by you as evidence? You have given one broad example without even a biblical quote. This isn't 'citing', this is insisting.
Prove it.
In a thread about evidence for the supernatural, I have seen nothing more than 'I've got this feeling' examples.
I can accept the feeling that these are special or supernatural but I also see that people attribute the reason to their personal beliefs. I doubt a buddhist or muslim would come to the same conclusion as a christian any more than a skeptical atheist.
People naturally see coincidences and selectively memorize them. I don't know why but I know they do (Marketing is evil ). Suddenly seeing more examples of a car you have just bought driving around is a common example of this process.
I believe nator nailed more than eight years ago with...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does a non-coincidence look like?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Warthog. A hearty welcome to EvC town from Buzsaw. We hope you'll become a residing active member.
Thanks for asking. I know a lot of them have been cited in the Buzsaw profile archives. You can search them out by clicking on my user-name and check out the thread titles which I've participated in over the past nine years.
I see one very interesting and enlightening one pertaining to Israel, etc. It's especially interesting in that it is my opening post to what was to be a Great Debate with a very respected active EvC member who was either atheistic or agnostic. His user-name was Meldinoor. We all liked him, creationists and evolutionists alike. No matter who he debated he was a real gentleman.
I made a claim in a thread similar to what I made here, that the fulfilled prophecies were evidence of the supernatural. Well, Meldinoor, suggested that I do a Great Debate with someone to debate whether this was true. So I challenged Meldinoor to a Great Debate on the topic. Meldinoor agreed.
I posted a rather lengthy OP, citing throughout the ancient Old Testament, Jesus of the New Testament, etc relative to a number of the prophecies, coming to mind, that the Jews would be globally dispersed and then, in the latter days, be regathered back to their ancient land of Israel and be restored as a nation etc.
Well, I've since been puzzled and disappointed that our friend, Meldinoor suddenly just became an inactive member, never to be heard of again, so for.
Now here's what's interesting. Because of your request for evidence of fulfilled prophecies, I went back in the profiles and came upon this proposed debate. I see a nice little red cheer dot on my OP message which cited all of the scriptures of the different ancient prophets etc. Guess who gave the cheer? It was none other than Meldinoor.
The cheer/jeers option was not installed on our EvC website back then, so evidently, Meldinoor logged in at some time fairly recently, cheered my message. Then he must have logged out again.
Perhaps Meldinoor has posted recently and I have missed it. If that be the case, hopefully another member will cite where he has.
That's it for now, Warthog. I'll go back in my profile and find some other prophecies which will corroborate what I've cited so far.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Warthog, posted 01-29-2012 5:51 AM Warthog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2012 9:44 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 71 by Trixie, posted 01-29-2012 9:46 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 01-29-2012 10:38 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 74 by Warthog, posted 01-29-2012 5:05 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 69 of 107 (650238)
01-29-2012 9:22 AM


Re: Meldinoor Great Debate
Hi again, Warthog. I forgot to cite the message number of the above mentioned proposed Great Debate with Meldinoor. It's Message 1

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by crashfrog, posted 01-29-2012 10:39 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 107 (650303)
01-29-2012 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Warthog
01-29-2012 5:05 PM


Re: Debating Skeptics (Sometime A Venture In Futility
Warthog writes:
Thanks for the link but I didn't see any evidence there. It appears to me that you are using the bible to prove the bible.
'
(sigh)Here's how you figure out the link evidence. You read all of the prophetic references pertaining to the ancient dispersion and the predicted latter day restoration of the Israeli Jews which are cited in the link. You check out the history of the tiny land of Israel from the time of Christ until now on Google. You discover that for about 19 long centuries the land was essentially occupied by Gentiles while the Jews were dispersed. Then you look up recent history and find that the long time relatively desolate land has been irrigated, blooming and that Israel is the only nation in that region of the world that actually exports produce. You find that there's been numerous wars as all of the large Islamic nations have tried to knock out Israel, etc, etc.
Now, Warthog, Go figure. You don't think there's anything unusual about that tiny land's people being dispersed among many nations and now after all of this time there they are, strong, able to defend themselves against all odds etc just as predicted by many sources thousands of years ago? Can you name any other people in history that something similar has happened? Do you think that if the Navajo Indians were dispersed globally 19 centuries ago that they would remain identifiable Navajos to return to their reservation in the Southwest?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Warthog, posted 01-29-2012 5:05 PM Warthog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Coyote, posted 01-29-2012 10:52 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 85 by Warthog, posted 01-30-2012 8:27 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 76 of 107 (650305)
01-29-2012 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by crashfrog
01-29-2012 10:38 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Crashfrog, l plan to cite other evidence, but let's discuss this most significant one for now. There's plenty of time for more. I'm limited in how much time I can expend on this, having a lot of other activity, including a business etc.
How about you go at the Jew/Israel and debunk it before getting all hept up for more?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 01-29-2012 10:38 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 01-30-2012 9:49 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 107 (650307)
01-29-2012 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Trixie
01-29-2012 9:46 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Trixie writes:
Buz, the thread title is "Evidence for the supernatural". When you resurrected this long-dead thread it was reasonable to assume you were either going to request evidence or supply evidence. So far all we've got is a vague claim about a fulfilled prophesy, a prophesy you don't even provide a proper source for.
Trixie, anyone literate can read the evidence which I've cited. If you think it's vague, how about telling the folks how so you consider it vague?
Again, as I've posted, deal with this and then we move on.
Finally, the sour grapes over a Great Debate topic doesn't cut it. For someone who hits the "Jeers" button regardless of post quality, but based on which side of the debate someone is on, your whinge is ironic. All those times you jeered people for purely partisan reasons,........
You're falsely maligning me, Check them out more carefully. You see that they are hit and miss, depending on the content of the message.
As for my suggestion to Warthog, all I did was suggest that if he/she cared to one could check out the Thread titles. Some of them would likely cite others. Other than that, be patient. The one at have should have you plate full for now.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Trixie, posted 01-29-2012 9:46 AM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Trixie, posted 01-30-2012 4:00 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 107 (650309)
01-29-2012 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by PaulK
01-29-2012 9:44 AM


Re: Meldinoor, Reconsidering?
PaulK writes:
Meldinoor was a Christian who became an agnostic during his time at EvC Message 1 I think that the "cheer" is just a conversion of a rating given under the previous system, not a sign that Meldinoor has been around lately.
The significant thing is that he essentially declared my OP irrefutable, knowing that he would not prevail in the debate.
I take it as a hopeful indication that Meldinoor has had 2nd thoughts and reconsidered the awful decision to cast off Christianity and go agnostic publicly. I hope to, by and by, meet him inside Heaven's pearly gates.
ABE: Cavediver, take note.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Change name
Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2012 9:44 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 01-30-2012 1:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 82 by Trixie, posted 01-30-2012 4:21 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 107 (650347)
01-30-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by crashfrog
01-30-2012 9:49 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
posted by accident
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 01-30-2012 9:49 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
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