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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Supernatural
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 91 of 107 (650355)
01-30-2012 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
01-30-2012 1:46 PM


Buzsaw misrepresents the Bible, as usual.
quote:
For example, in Ezekiel 35, the prophet predicted that the occupants of the land of Edom would claim two nations, i.e. both Israel and Edom as their own lands. The Palestinians who are clamoring for the demise of Israel and who now occupy part of ancient Israel's land now occupy ancient Edom
There are some serious falsehoods there.
Ezekiel 35 is addressed to the Edomite's of Ezekiel's time. And they are long gone, vanished from history (probably merged into the Jewish population).
The Edomites were to be punished because they HAD coveted the two kingdoms (Israel and Judah). That's no prediction.
The main Palestinian regions are the West Bank (in ancient times part of Israel and Judah) and the Gaza strip (formerly Philisitia as anyone familiar with the Bible should know !). Neither of these are part of ancient Edom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2012 1:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 92 of 107 (650357)
01-30-2012 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
01-30-2012 1:46 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
Some decades ago a large C47 was gutted and airlifted a thousand Blackish Ethiopian Jews to Israel. Over the centuries, evidently there was some micro-evolving pertaining to them and enough Negro blood in their genes to change the color of their skin. Nevertheless, genetically, they were identifiable as Jews. This alone is phenomenal
Unsurprisingly much of this is false. You're talking about Operation Solomon which occured in 1991, which was a 36-hour mission to transplant ethiopian jews to Israel. One flight by an El Al 747 carried over 1000 passengers. All the DNA studies done on the Beta israel were done after 1991 and point to the Beta Israel being of an african descent not middle-eastern.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2012 1:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Warthog, posted 01-30-2012 4:43 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3969 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 93 of 107 (650390)
01-30-2012 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by DrJones*
01-30-2012 2:11 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
quote:
. All the DNA studies done on the Beta israel were done after 1991 and point to the Beta Israel being of an african descent not middle-eastern.
Cool - I just learned something. I always thought that the Jews were of one genetic group.
Thanks Dr Jones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by DrJones*, posted 01-30-2012 2:11 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by DrJones*, posted 01-30-2012 4:52 PM Warthog has replied
 Message 95 by jar, posted 01-30-2012 5:01 PM Warthog has not replied
 Message 96 by bluegenes, posted 01-30-2012 5:32 PM Warthog has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 94 of 107 (650392)
01-30-2012 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Warthog
01-30-2012 4:43 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
- I just learned something. I always thought that the Jews were of one genetic group
"Jew" is both a religious group and an ethnic group, I could convert and be a Jew despite not have any middle eastern ancestry. The Ethiopian Jews appear to fit this category, a long time ago a cluster of Ethiopian families/clans converted to Judaism and passed the religion down through time.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Warthog, posted 01-30-2012 4:43 PM Warthog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Warthog, posted 01-30-2012 6:06 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 107 (650395)
01-30-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Warthog
01-30-2012 4:43 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
Just as Israel is both a nation and a people and in fact the Nation of Israel is often portrayed in the Bible as apostate.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Warthog, posted 01-30-2012 4:43 PM Warthog has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2478 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 96 of 107 (650399)
01-30-2012 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Warthog
01-30-2012 4:43 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
Warthog writes:
Cool - I just learned something. I always thought that the Jews were of one genetic group.
Those returning to Israel from the diaspora are often visibly carrying some genes from the areas of exile as well as from their middle Eastern ancestors.
If you really want to upset Buzsaw, you could point out to him that the Palestinians might be purer candidates for the title of "the seed of Abraham" than the Israelis.
Here's an interesting thing about the the idea of God giving the city of Jerusalem to the Jews for all time. Looked at in religious terms, it is Pagans who have ruled Jerusalem for a greater number of years than anyone else. Second come the Muslims. Third (about equal) come the Christians and the Jews with about the same total ruling time.
See below: yellow=Paganism; green=Islam; red=Christian; blue=Judaism.
Rulers of Jerusalem
Year
A Jewish historical claim to rule the city looks absurd according to that timeline.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Warthog, posted 01-30-2012 4:43 PM Warthog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2012 8:14 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3969 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 97 of 107 (650404)
01-30-2012 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by DrJones*
01-30-2012 4:52 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
quote:
"Jew" is both a religious group and an ethnic group, I could convert and be a Jew despite not have any middle eastern ancestry.
That, I knew. I was referring to the ethnic group. This is why I referred to the Romani in an earlier post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by DrJones*, posted 01-30-2012 4:52 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 107 (650414)
01-30-2012 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by bluegenes
01-30-2012 5:32 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
bluejeans writes:
A Jewish historical claim to rule the city looks absurd according to that timeline.
The problem with your straw-man data is that what the observable evidence pertaining to the prophets show, is that the promise of Jehovah to Abram, Isaac and confirmed to Jacob that the land would be restored in the latter days, to become Israel's land foreverm is on tract. Despite all of the waring nations committed to tiny Israel's demise, surrounding her, she has withstood them all, still Jewish and still powerful.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by bluegenes, posted 01-30-2012 5:32 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 01-30-2012 8:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 01-31-2012 1:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 101 by Warthog, posted 01-31-2012 6:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 102 by bluegenes, posted 01-31-2012 7:10 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 99 of 107 (650415)
01-30-2012 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Buzsaw
01-30-2012 8:14 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
On track is still just another failed prophecy Buz.
Until you actually list and discuss chapter and verse you have nothing but unsupported assertions.
Continued unsupported assertions do not make them fact.
Have you ever actually read the Bible?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2012 8:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 100 of 107 (650419)
01-31-2012 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Buzsaw
01-30-2012 8:14 PM


Ignorance is annoying
Buz, can you please stop using the term "straw-man" as an excuse to dismiss any point you dislike ? If you can't be bothered to learn what a term means just stop using it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2012 8:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3969 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 101 of 107 (650428)
01-31-2012 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Buzsaw
01-30-2012 8:14 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
quote:
The problem with your straw-man data is that what the observable evidence pertaining to the prophets show, is that the promise of Jehovah to Abram, Isaac and confirmed to Jacob that the land would be restored in the latter days, to become Israel's land foreverm is on tract. Despite all of the waring nations committed to tiny Israel's demise, surrounding her, she has withstood them all, still Jewish and still powerful.
Buz,
I think the problem with your argument is that what you have presented here so far is really just a few cherry picked references from one source and quite nonspecific. They are uncorroborated by any other evidence. I have given my response to these in an earlier post and had no reply from you.
Can I take it that you feel that my post is irrefutable? If not, then please show me evidence that my points are wrong.
What you have described is essentially self-fulfilling and vague prophecy that you are asserting is evidence.
As I said before... In a thread about evidence for the supernatural, I have seen nothing more than 'I've got this feeling' examples.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2012 8:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2478 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 102 of 107 (650431)
01-31-2012 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Buzsaw
01-30-2012 8:14 PM


Re: Israel's Occupation
Buzsaw writes:
The problem with your straw-man data is that what the observable evidence pertaining to the prophets show, is that the promise of Jehovah to Abram, Isaac and confirmed to Jacob that the land would be restored in the latter days, to become Israel's land foreverm is on tract. Despite all of the waring nations committed to tiny Israel's demise, surrounding her, she has withstood them all, still Jewish and still powerful.
What I was referring to was the first quote you come up with in your great debate that wasn't great and didn't happen.
Buzsaw writes:
The first Biblical prophecy relating to the ultimate restoration of the nation is in Genesis 13:14, 15 (ASV)
"14And Jehovah said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art, northward and southward and eastward and westward: 15for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."
So, was Jerusalem part of this promised land? If so, and we assume your view that the Jews are the seed of Abraham, then God clearly failed on this early promise. He should have said "I will give you this land intermittently for about 10% of the time over the next few thousand years", shouldn't he?
"For ever" means from the moment of speaking through the rest of all time.
Now, on to your problems with the "seed of Abraham". Most people who identify themselves as Jewish in some sense haven't gone to Israel. Almost all people who identify themselves as Jewish have picked up some ancestry from regions of the world other than the middle-east over the last two millennia.
The mixing goes the other way as well, and many people around the world will have a Jewish ancestor somewhere in their history, because many Jews assimilated into the mainstream cultures wherever they were over those two millennia. So, the "seed of Abraham" (any distinctive alleles his original small tribe might have had) are drifting all around the world, and most of them certainly won't ever return to the region.
As for your prophecies in relation to modern Israel, what you're seeing with religious Zionists (and to some extent the secular ones) is a classic example of self-fulfilling prophecy. This is when knowledge of a prophecy and belief in it makes it come true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2012 8:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by purpledawn, posted 01-31-2012 9:29 AM bluegenes has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 103 of 107 (650440)
01-31-2012 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by bluegenes
01-31-2012 7:10 AM


Re: Israel's Occupation
quote:
"For ever" means from the moment of speaking through the rest of all time.
Not really. Owlam carries a meaning of long duration, antiquity, futurity.
The end may be unknown, but the word doesn't mean there can't or won't be an end when speaking of the future.
Regarding the misleading translations 'for ever' and 'everlasting' in the Old Testament, and the actual meaning of the old Hebrew word olam (owlam).
Joshua 4:7 contains another example of the use of the word olam in ancient Hebrew:
Joshua 4:5 and Joshua said to them: Cross over before the ark of Jehovah your God into the midst of the Jordan, and each one of you take up a stone on his shoulder, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Israel, 6 that this may be a sign among you when your children ask in time to come, saying, What are these stones to you? 7 Then you shall answer them that the waters of the Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of Jehovah; when it crossed over the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan were cut off. And these stones shall be for a memorial to the children of Israel for all time. [olam]. (VW-2006, comment added)
Point: Those stones did not remain as a memorial "for ever". They remained there as a memorial for a long but nevertheless limited time. Today, they are most probably eroded, without a trace of them remaining.
Not sure how that impacts the issue with Israel, but that's my 2 cents worth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by bluegenes, posted 01-31-2012 7:10 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by bluegenes, posted 01-31-2012 10:14 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2478 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 104 of 107 (650442)
01-31-2012 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by purpledawn
01-31-2012 9:29 AM


Re: Israel's Occupation
purpledawn writes:
Not really. Owlam carries a meaning of long duration, antiquity, futurity.
And "long" is a relative word. So Buzsaw could claim the Kingdom of David as a fulfillment of the prophesy/promise, or indeed, Jewish rule over the area that Abraham could see from the hill he was on for any given period of time that might seem long to nomads (a few years might seem like a settlement of "long duration" to them).
As Abraham himself was included in this promise along with his seed, any Jewish conquests of any land after his death seem to be ruled out, though.
purpledawn writes:
Not sure how that impacts the issue with Israel, but that's my 2 cents worth.
It would mean, if you look at the timeline I posted, that God has so far granted a hell of a lot more "owlam" (long duration) to Pagans, Muslims and Christians combined than he has to the Jews, so far as Jerusalem is concerned. If you take Buzsaw's view that the Jews are the seed of Abraham, God's promise to them seems rather pointless. He should have said "I'll give these lands to anyone who grabs them", which far more accurately describes the history of the area since Abe's time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by purpledawn, posted 01-31-2012 9:29 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 107 (650486)
01-31-2012 4:29 PM


OFF TOPIC..lets get back on board
This thread has wandered through the desert and is drifting off topic.
quote:
told some people on this web site that I've seen evidence for the supernatural. Not necessarily repeatable, testable evidence, but certainly court room type evidence, where you listen to witnesses.
quote:
Our prayers are answered, regularly. We live confidently by that inner voice that has helped us to know "this is an emergency, go to the hospital," or "there's nothing to worry about, put a little medicine on it."
Percy writes:
If you want to believe in the supernatural, fine, probably most of us have no problem with that. But if you want to call your belief in the supernatural scientific, then I think most of us would have a *big* problem with that.
Buzsaw writes:
I've had scores of unusual answers to prayer which I am positive were supernatural. However I do not expect a non-Christian to accept these as evidence for the supernatural, simply because as pointed out I can't prove to someone else that these were indeed answers to prayer.
Rather, I choose to use such things as fulfilled prophecy. For example, It has been widely prophesied in the Bible both by OT prophets and NT prophets like Jesus himself and John that Israel would be dispersed worldwide and would return in the latter days to be surrounded by enemy armies and prevail to remain a nation of Israelites at a time when the gospel of Jesus would be preached worldwide until he, Jesus, messiah returns. After 19 centuries this is right on track. That's just one of scores of prophecies, a few of which have been mentioned elswhere here in town.

Replies to this message:
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